Homeopathy, does it work?

Does homeopathy work?

Poll ended at 13 Jul 2019, 9:10am

Yes!
5
9%
Tend to yes
2
3%
No!
49
84%
Tend to no
1
2%
Worth a try if normal treatment fails
1
2%
Don't know yet
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 58

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horizon
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby horizon » 11 Jun 2019, 11:55am

Mike Sales wrote: There is no way homeopathy has any relation to modern medicine.


Yes, it is a diametrically opposed to it, as explained somewhere above.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

reohn2
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby reohn2 » 11 Jun 2019, 11:55am

horizon wrote:
pwa wrote:The official explanation for homeopathy is so ridiculous as to be comical, so it has to be placebo. Which is where it becomes interesting.


The official explanation for homeopathy is like cures like, which, while you may object to it, isn't comical. The claimed action of the remedy (dilution in water) is ridiculous to our thinking. The only effective way to know if it is real or not is through the statistics which do not show an effect. But try telling that to the thousands of people who wear and promote cycle helmets.

Rabbit's foot,dreamcatchers,or any other lucky charms :?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Jun 2019, 12:11pm

horizon wrote:
pwa wrote:The official explanation for homeopathy is so ridiculous as to be comical, so it has to be placebo. Which is where it becomes interesting.


The official explanation for homeopathy is like cures like, which, while you may object to it, isn't comical. The claimed action of the remedy (dilution in water) is ridiculous to our thinking. The only effective way to know if it is real or not is through the statistics which do not show an effect. But try telling that to the thousands of people who wear and promote cycle helmets.

I'm not sure if you meant this but to me the bold sentence above is effectively saying homeopathic treatment is not real because the statistics (assumed statistics obtained by clinical trials) so not show a effect. Basically you have defended homeopathy because you feel it works for you but in that sentence you're denying there's a effect.

Have you had a change of mind on homeopathy?

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horizon
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby horizon » 11 Jun 2019, 12:42pm

Tangled Metal wrote:
horizon wrote:
pwa wrote:The official explanation for homeopathy is so ridiculous as to be comical, so it has to be placebo. Which is where it becomes interesting.


The official explanation for homeopathy is like cures like, which, while you may object to it, isn't comical. The claimed action of the remedy (dilution in water) is ridiculous to our thinking. The only effective way to know if it is real or not is through the statistics which do not show an effect. But try telling that to the thousands of people who wear and promote cycle helmets.

I'm not sure if you meant this but to me the bold sentence above is effectively saying homeopathic treatment is not real because the statistics (assumed statistics obtained by clinical trials) so not show a effect. Basically you have defended homeopathy because you feel it works for you but in that sentence you're denying there's a effect.

Have you had a change of mind on homeopathy?


No, what I wrote is what I meant. AFAIK, there are no studies that show, statistically, that homeopathy works. All the evidence is either anecdotal or can be put down as placebo or even as the body just getting better in its own way. This is IMV a much more damning argument against homeopathy than the lack of a molecular substance (see my analogy to music above). That doesn't mean though that I personally would discredit homeopathy but I wouldn't set out to prove that it works. I would look for flaws in the studies or why they might not reflect accurately how homeopathy is said to work but this would be for my own interest.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

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horizon
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Location: Cornwall

Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby horizon » 11 Jun 2019, 12:47pm

horizon wrote:
Mike Sales wrote: There is no way homeopathy has any relation to modern medicine.


Yes, it is a diametrically opposed to it, as explained somewhere above.


Just as an example (as there is a Radio 4 programme on at the moment about it), for sleeplessness a doctor would prescribe something that sends you to sleep (i.e. a sleeping tablet) that is proven to work. A homeopath OTOH would prescribe something that normally keeps you awake, like coffee, in a highly diluted form (i.e. no molecules left).

You can make of that what you will! :)
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

Mike Sales
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Jun 2019, 12:53pm

horizon wrote:Just as an example (as there is a Radio 4 programme on at the moment about it), for sleeplessness a doctor would prescribe something that sends you to sleep (i.e. a sleeping tablet) that is proven to work. A homeopath OTOH would prescribe something that normally keeps you awake, like coffee, in a highly diluted form (i.e. no molecules left).

You can make of that what you will! :)


As it happens I am listening to it.

Modern medicine has saved my life more than once, so I tend to stick with it, and avoid its opposite.

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gaz
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby gaz » 11 Jun 2019, 4:17pm

horizon wrote:But try telling that to the thousands of people who wear and promote cycle helmets.

Submerge an ordinary cycle helmet into a vat of water. Drain that water off, dilute it further, then further again and finally wash your hair with some of the solution. Sorted :mrgreen: .
Hand wash only. Do not iron.

scottg
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby scottg » 11 Jun 2019, 5:34pm

gaz wrote:
horizon wrote:But try telling that to the thousands of people who wear and promote cycle helmets.

Submerge an ordinary cycle helmet into a vat of water. Drain that water off, dilute it further, then further again and finally wash your hair with some of the solution. Sorted :mrgreen: .



Sounds similar to the homepathic Scotch I was offered,
take a just emptied bottle of Glenfiddich, fill with highland water, presto,
you have a new bottle of 15 year old homeopathic Scotch,
that'll be 50 quid.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Why not the best, buy Cyclo-Benelux.

borisface
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Joined: 19 Feb 2010, 3:48pm

Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby borisface » 11 Jun 2019, 8:31pm

Well if it did we'd all be dead as minute dilutions of harmful substances are found in most water supplies.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Jun 2019, 9:08pm

Yes but the idea is to cure say lead poisoning by homeopathy you put lead in water then shake and dilute until no lead is present.

Any nasties that were in the water but no longer there will only cure you if you have something like it in your system. So clean tap water could be a cure all! :D

Mike Sales
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Jun 2019, 9:21pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Yes but the idea is to cure say lead poisoning by homeopathy you put lead in water then shake and dilute until no lead is present.

Any nasties that were in the water but no longer there will only cure you if you have something like it in your system. So clean tap water could be a cure all! :D


As you say, it does need to be shaken (or succussed) as well!
I have a vague memory of something like a leather pad being involved too.

Ah yes.

First, we prepare a one to one hundred dilution of the solution and then we succuss this new dilution vigorously at each step. (Succussion is the forceful pounding of the liquid dilution against a firm but resilient surface.)


This is from a purveyor of homeopathic remedies.

http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_info/hahnemann_labs_preparation.html

Mike Sales
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Jun 2019, 9:50pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:Yes but the idea is to cure say lead poisoning by homeopathy you put lead in water then shake and dilute until no lead is present.

Any nasties that were in the water but no longer there will only cure you if you have something like it in your system. So clean tap water could be a cure all! :D


As you say, it does need to be shaken (or succussed) as well!
I have a vague memory of something like a leather pad being involved too.

Ah yes.

First, we prepare a one to one hundred dilution of the solution and then we succuss this new dilution vigorously at each step. (Succussion is the forceful pounding of the liquid dilution against a firm but resilient surface.)


This is from a purveyor of homeopathic remedies.

http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_info/hahnemann_labs_preparation.html


One wonders if there is an E.U. standard which checks that the pounding is forceful enough.

ThePinkOne
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby ThePinkOne » 23 Jun 2019, 5:08pm

I recommend Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Sience" and the stuff in there about homeopathy.

Basically, it "works" due to the placebo effect.

As he points out, the placebo effect is an amazing thing, even things like colour of pill can effect how well they work for different things.

TPO

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horizon
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Location: Cornwall

Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby horizon » 23 Jun 2019, 5:33pm

ThePinkOne wrote:I recommend Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Sience" and the stuff in there about homeopathy.

Basically, it "works" due to the placebo effect.

As he points out, the placebo effect is an amazing thing, even things like colour of pill can effect how well they work for different things.

TPO


So it does work then (even though it's a placebo)! :wink: So why not use it? I think the general opinion is that it doesn't usually work. BTW the two processes of dilution and succussion were empirical "discoveries". They do "work" in that they were found to work (or increase the placebo effect depending on your POV). Given what we know we don't know, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water (even if the baby is so highly diluted it's not there). As I said above, the real problem is with the absence of a statistical effect (although if that is "not above placebo", then roll on placebos!).
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

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pjclinch
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Re: Homeopathy, does it work?

Postby pjclinch » 23 Jun 2019, 7:58pm

horizon wrote:
So it does work then (even though it's a placebo)! :wink: So why not use it? I think the general opinion is that it doesn't usually work.


What do we mean by "work"? If you mean "the patient gets better" that's not the same thing as "a mysterious imprint on the structure of water by an anti-therapeutic agent has enabled a cure".

You might think that's just semantics, but patients were "cured" by bleeding them for centuries, so are you going to suggest that "works"? One of the reasons homeopathy was seen as a breakthrough was it probably did nothing active, as opposed to something actively bad!

While placebos are good and interesting and have a place, there are ethical issues involved, especially where you find a patient has something worse than originally thought. The main place is when there is a diagnosis of nothing to be done (e.g. a hypochondriac or something like a common cold), but you need a proper diagnosis first.
Also, check out the Nocebo effect: people can make themselves worse too...

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...