Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

beardy
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby beardy » 19 Jan 2016, 10:34am

It's just wrong.


No it isnt because we are not using absolute reality as the baseline. We are using standard perception of reality as the baseline. Standard perception of reality is a good base line because it has evolved with us and is capable of keeping us functioning and intact as a species and it is all that we have.

Just as we choose to measure height above sea level rather than height above the centre of the big bang, it is functional and useful, even if imprecise and galactically arbitrary.

reohn2
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jan 2016, 10:38am

Beardy
Agreed,though even sober people's perception isn't a constant.
Laws of physics work,but our relationship to them differ,alcohol has an effect on the senses that's a given,what that effect is can differ from person to person and consumption person to person .
One person may become violent after consuming even a small amount of alcohol,whilst the effect on another may be to become more friendly.
I much prefer my perception of reality without alcohol than with,some people's perception of reality may need(for them)to be blunted if only slightly,to better enjoy their lives,I have no problem with that.

What seems to have happened is the discussion has become polarised to abstention/sober and completely drunk/bladdered.
For most people that isn't the case,their enjoyment of alcohol is somewhere in between and mostly nearer to sober than bladdered.
Though there is an increase in the number of people getting very drunk on a regular basis,which is impacting on far more people's health than ever before which will have a knock on effect on society down the line.
TBH the government could do better than simply issuing guidelines that will,for the most part,be completely ignored or even scoffed at by drinkers whatever their consumption.
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SpannerGeek
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby SpannerGeek » 19 Jan 2016, 10:51am

beardy wrote:
It's just wrong.


No it isnt because we are not using absolute reality as the baseline. We are using standard perception of reality as the baseline. Standard perception of reality is a good base line because it has evolved with us and is capable of keeping us functioning and intact as a species and it is all that we have.

Just as we choose to measure height above sea level rather than height above the centre of the big bang, it is functional and useful, even if imprecise and galactically arbitrary.


Watch the videos. I can guarantee your perception of the accurate nature of your (sober) perception of the world will change.

As previously stated (not by me) perceptions are not reality. The reality of the physical (body) world may indeed be real (the apple may well be red) but my perception (mind) of the apple is dubious and inconsistent. So the absolute truth about my perception of reality (in any state, drunk or sober) is that it cannot be trusted. Furthermore it cannot be trusted to replicate true reality in my mind as it is intrinsicly unreliable.

beardy
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby beardy » 19 Jan 2016, 10:56am

or even scoffed at by drinkers whatever their consumption.


That is certainly going to be the case. We will have a natural first reaction to reject the advice that brings our drinking levels under question. My "indignation" at one pint a day being described as too much will be shared by those drinking four or eight, we will all claim "I can handle it".

So we do look to the health authorities to give us good trustworthy guidance. I think that they have oversimplified, twisted and misrepresented in order to give a social "push".
At least one person on the forum has reacted on this (even though I dont think they were fooled, they just thought about it a bit more).

I used to have a day off from my pint a lot more frequently than I have of late. This debate has made me aware of my slipping habit and the night off has been re-instigated (partially). So it could be working, that even false information has got us thinking about it again.
If I had a night off every week then I would be back within the guidelines but that is not a good enough reason for me to abstain on any particular night that I fancy a pint.
Especially as I seriously doubt that any scientific trial could detect the difference between those drinking one pint on six days a week from those drinking one pint on seven days a week.
Or is that just me thinking what suits my existing behaviour?

beardy
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby beardy » 19 Jan 2016, 11:00am

Watch the videos. I can guarantee your perception of the accurate nature of your (sober) perception of the world will change.


I didnt say it was accurate, I know it isnt accurate but I know how to keep within the bounds of its functional accuracy.

The point is that it works it keeps me alive, safe, comfortable and lets me (believe) that I have children who I am able to keep alive, happy and comfortable.
Now how many alcoholics can say that about their level of perception (and control).

reohn2
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jan 2016, 11:14am

SpannerGeek wrote:.... So the absolute truth about my perception of reality (in any state, drunk or sober) is that it cannot be trusted.........


Though sober,it could be argued to be more reliable/acurate than when drunk.
Though the level of enjoyment of reality it could be argued,to be better when drunk but it's usually by people who drink.
There's a price to be paid for that enjoyment,both in the pocket and in the mind,the morning after.
Last edited by reohn2 on 19 Jan 2016, 11:16am, edited 1 time in total.
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SpannerGeek
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby SpannerGeek » 19 Jan 2016, 11:15am

Here's an example to confound your confidence in your 'sober' perception.

I can ask three people how far away a tree is. One might say twenty feet, one twenty five and the other ten feet. The tree is actually a holographic projection of a tree 44ft away. So their perception is actually false on every level.

Here is the interesting bit. The tree is generally a physical entity (body) but it is perceived by the mind, an abstracted non material entity (very few scientists or philosophers would disagree with that) which is intrinsic unreliable as a viewer .

That is all that we have. The modality of the mind is not material, it is a sequence of ideas. So when you say the idea of a tree is absolute and reliable that's completely wrong, the reality of the tree might be absolute but our perception of it is not, it is false and incoherent.

Drunk or stone cold sober the perception of the distance of a tree is just an idea. Which is essentially unreliable. Drunk or sober makes no difference to the quality of an inherently unreliable idea.

reohn2
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jan 2016, 11:18am

Try having the same conversation about the tree with someone who's drunk :wink:
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SpannerGeek
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby SpannerGeek » 19 Jan 2016, 11:22am

It seems many people are confused by the effect alcohol has on perception (mind), (flawed anyway) and the effect it has on our reflexes (body) which is real.

The drunk person will give equally inaccurate perceptions.

Though it might make for an interesting ten minutes ;)

reohn2
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jan 2016, 11:29am

SpannerGeek wrote:It seems many people are confused by the effect alcohol has on perception (mind), (flawed anyway) and the effect it has on our reflexes (body) which is real.

The drunk person will give equally inaccurate perceptions.

Though it might make for an interesting ten minutes ;)


Ten minutes,as long as that?

You've obviously never been properly drunk! :wink:


BTW,I feel I should mention that I haven't touched a drop for 20 odd years,best days work I ever did :)
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beardy
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby beardy » 19 Jan 2016, 11:33am

So when you say the idea of a tree is absolute and reliable that's completely wrong, the reality of the tree might be absolute but our perception of it is not, it is false and incoherent.


That hasnt actually happened to me yet though, has it?
I know that all of the trees in the movies that I watch are not real (whether they were film of real trees of computer generated). Functionally all the trees that I see around me are quite real (there are a lot of trees around here) and it is functionally very important that I do not let any questioning of their reality lead me to having the sorts of interactions with them, where my wellbeing relies on them not being real.

All the trees around here are quite real and must be treated as such.

SpannerGeek
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby SpannerGeek » 19 Jan 2016, 11:43am

Some trees are more real than others ;)

But you can't deny your perception of how far away a tree (or variety of trees) is inconsistent and unreliable. Because it is just an idea. Therefore ALL of your perceptions (mind) of real objects are inconsistent and unreliable. A similar famous psychological test was performed for smell and color of real objects and the perceptions, as one might have expected varied wildly.

Participants were asked to rate their confidence in perception from one to ten beforehand. Before the experiment the average was 8.5. Afterwards it dropped to 2.1.

Perceptions are not reality. To say that alcohol diminishes our perception is clearly wrong. The effects it has on the motor system (body) are real and beyond dispute. But the two are not the same.
Last edited by SpannerGeek on 19 Jan 2016, 11:50am, edited 1 time in total.

Shootist
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Shootist » 19 Jan 2016, 11:46am

SpannerGeek wrote:Here's an example to confound your confidence in your 'sober' perception.

I can ask three people how far away a tree is. One might say twenty feet, one twenty five and the other ten feet. The tree is actually a holographic projection of a tree 44ft away. So their perception is actually false on every level.

Here is the interesting bit. The tree is generally a physical entity (body) but it is perceived by the mind, an abstracted non material entity (very few scientists or philosophers would disagree with that) which is intrinsic unreliable as a viewer .

That is all that we have. The modality of the mind is not material, it is a sequence of ideas. So when you say the idea of a tree is absolute and reliable that's completely wrong, the reality of the tree might be absolute but our perception of it is not, it is false and incoherent.


You demonstrate most eloquently your total failure to understand the difference between perceived reality and actual reality. The tree is actually (in reality) a holographic projection of a tree. That is the reality. It may look very convincing, but the perception is false. It's a bit like having to drink a pint or ten in order to perceive that the people you are with are good company, or to perceive that they think you are. Either perception may well be completely false.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

Shootist
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Shootist » 19 Jan 2016, 11:48am

SpannerGeek wrote:Some trees are more real than others ;)

But you can't deny your perception of how far away a tree (or variety of trees) is inconsistent and unreliable. Because it is just an idea. Therefore ALL of your perceptions (mind) of real objects are inconsistent and unreliable.


So try riding your bike into the tree at a goodly speed. If it's a hologram then no problem. If it is, in reality, a tree, you will match perception with reality.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

SpannerGeek
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby SpannerGeek » 19 Jan 2016, 11:53am

Shootist wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:Some trees are more real than others ;)

But you can't deny your perception of how far away a tree (or variety of trees) is inconsistent and unreliable. Because it is just an idea. Therefore ALL of your perceptions (mind) of real objects are inconsistent and unreliable.


So try riding your bike into the tree at a goodly speed. If it's a hologram then no problem. If it is, in reality, a tree, you will match perception with reality.



You demonstrate without effort the inability to accept your statement 'perception is not reality' contradicts every single post you made previously and the ones you continue to make. This is very interesting to observe... You are in fact the very proof (if any more were needed) that perceptions (ideas) can be inconsistent and unreliable.
Last edited by SpannerGeek on 19 Jan 2016, 12:04pm, edited 1 time in total.