Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

beardy
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby beardy » 19 Jan 2016, 3:35pm

The only scientific truth about alcohol is that it impairs our (body) reflexes.


Have you ever been drunk? I have not come across anybody who is only impaired in the body reflexes. Everybody that I have met has their mental capacity smashed as well as their motor ability with the intake of alcohol.
Nor would I choose to prepare my accounts with three pints in me and not because I am afraid of not being able to press the keys that I was aiming for.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/582796
http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/i ... g/bac.html

SpannerGeek
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby SpannerGeek » 19 Jan 2016, 3:52pm

If you read my post, the only scientific proof of alcohol intoxication is reduced motor skills. Whether it makes us happy or sad or angry is purely subjective. Many psychologists will say that these are simply facets we have been able to suppress and that alcohol merely disinhibits these emotions.

Which again, is a process of perception. Happiness after all is just a construct of the mind. It's just an idea and it should be clear by now how unreliable they can be...

beardy
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby beardy » 19 Jan 2016, 4:37pm

If you read my post, the only scientific proof of alcohol intoxication is reduced motor skills.


I read your post but I consider the scientific tests showing evidence of impaired mental function, in the references I posted to, to be more convincing than your assertion. They were just the first to pop up in a Google search, I am pretty confident that there is much more.

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Mick F
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Mick F » 19 Jan 2016, 4:47pm

reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote:I've just drunk a whole mug of tea whilst catching up with this thread ................ it's enough to drive a chap to drink.
I hope there wasn't any sugar in it! :shock:
No.
I kicked that habit nearly 40years ago.

I was brought up in the 50s post war (as you no doubt know) and it was just about the end of sugar rationing when I was a toddler. I still have my ration book! :D Consequently, sugar was very much in vogue and I was always given two sugars in my tea.
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Phileas
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Phileas » 19 Jan 2016, 6:02pm

Shootist wrote:For me, if I see a normally nice person turn into a complete talking rectum after a few alcoholic drinks then I am well advised that he is of that personality when he is sober, but just hides it well...


So in this case reality is distorted by sobriety?

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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby sjs » 19 Jan 2016, 9:37pm

SpannerGeek wrote:If you read my post, the only scientific proof of alcohol intoxication is reduced motor skills. Whether it makes us happy or sad or angry is purely subjective. Many psychologists will say that these are simply facets we have been able to suppress and that alcohol merely disinhibits these emotions.

Which again, is a process of perception. Happiness after all is just a construct of the mind. It's just an idea and it should be clear by now how unreliable they can be...


Perhaps I have misunderstood (I have found the last 10 pages or so of this thread a bit heavy going,and my attention may have wandered). But have you ever been drunk? Really drunk, say seven or eight pints of beer? Have you ever tried actually to think when drunk, or even with a bad hangover? It's not about happy or sad or angry, it's abut whether your brain actually works, for instance doing something as elementary as arithmetic.

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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Shootist » 19 Jan 2016, 10:25pm

Not quite my area of interest but this discussion has prompted me to wonder quite how the path to alcoholism works. I would assume that very few people set out to become an alcoholic. If this is accepted then there would seem to be a starting point that the drinker will assume he can handle his alcohol consumption and that it will not be a problem. The end point would seem to be when a person tries to stop their alcohol consumption but finds he cannot. It is not until then that he will truly realise he is an alcoholic. The trouble is, even then he may not be able to face the truth. All the usual excuses are trotted out. "I don't have a problem with drink, I can stop whenever I like." and "I enjoy a good drink. What's wrong with that?" Then one day they choke to death on the blood they vomited as a result of the damage cause to their throat, usually alone because nobody wants to live with them.

Somewhere in between, what changes? It's a bit like people who light bonfires with petrol. They've done it dozens of times without a problem, and so have lads of their friends. Then, one day, they're in A&E with a face like an overdone hamburger and a future that will largely consist of frightening children.

But that is not my concern. The death of an alcoholic lightens the burden of society a tiny little bit.
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Shootist » 19 Jan 2016, 10:29pm

SpannerGeek wrote:If you read my post, the only scientific proof of alcohol intoxication is reduced motor skills. Whether it makes us happy or sad or angry is purely subjective. Many psychologists will say that these are simply facets we have been able to suppress and that alcohol merely disinhibits these emotions.

Which again, is a process of perception. Happiness after all is just a construct of the mind. It's just an idea and it should be clear by now how unreliable they can be...


What part of motor skills cause a person to end up in bed with another, having unprotected sex, starting another life, and/or getting a sexually transmitted disease? That is most often a lapse of judgement, one they wouldn't make of sober.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

reohn2
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby reohn2 » 20 Jan 2016, 12:19am

Shootist wrote:Not quite my area of interest but this discussion has prompted me to wonder quite how the path to alcoholism works. I would assume that very few people set out to become an alcoholic. If this is accepted then there would seem to be a starting point that the drinker will assume he can handle his alcohol consumption and that it will not be a problem. The end point would seem to be when a person tries to stop their alcohol consumption but finds he cannot. It is not until then that he will truly realise he is an alcoholic. The trouble is, even then he may not be able to face the truth. All the usual excuses are trotted out. "I don't have a problem with drink, I can stop whenever I like." and "I enjoy a good drink. What's wrong with that?" Then one day they choke to death on the blood they vomited as a result of the damage cause to their throat, usually alone because nobody wants to live with them.....


Or before things get so bad, they wake up one morning with a concerned and very angry wife and realise yet again that they didn't stop at a couple of drinks.
They then realise they have a problem,followed by a realisation that one's too many and a thousand isn't enough.
Then if they've any sense they to stop.
Drink for such people is an illness an addiction,it doesn't mean they spend every waking hour drunk,but can mean once they start they're not satisfied until they're drunk.
The answer for such people is abstention.

Some people can have a couple of pints and know their limit,OK they may on occasion have one or two too many and perhaps get a little merry,I'd term them as a social drinker who can,to coin a phrase 'handle their drink'.

In the UK,there's a culture been fostered by the drinks industry to sell people as much alcohol as they can get them to pour down their necks in a short time,leaving the streets littered with drunken people of a w/end,and leaving the rest of society to pick up the pieces,it used to happen to an extent when I was a young buck,but nowhere near as bad as at present.
The price of so called 'tramp juice' cider sold in 2lt and 3lt bottles is so cheap as to begger belief.

It's a similar situation with 'legal highs',not to mention illegal drugs,which I agree should be legalised on a very strict,tight and registered basis.
If it did nothing else it would slash crime figures,but the political situation won't allow it,though that's a subject for another thread.

One thing's for sure we'll reap the whirlwind,and the irresponsible cause of it will be up the road with the cash flapping out of their back pocket laughing.
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Vorpal » 20 Jan 2016, 7:12am

Shootist wrote:Somewhere in between, what changes? It's a bit like people who light bonfires with petrol. They've done it dozens of times without a problem, and so have lads of their friends. Then, one day, they're in A&E with a face like an overdone hamburger and a future that will largely consist of frightening children.

But that is not my concern. The death of an alcoholic lightens the burden of society a tiny little bit.

Alcoholism is a disease. Those with alcoholism have altered brain function and structure, and part of the disease is denial. There is no known cure; some treatments are more effective than others, but none are complete. Abstention can allow an alcoholic to live a normal life, but one of the characteristics of the disease is an impaired control over alcohol use. That means it can be difficult or impossible in some situations for the alcoholic to not drink. Those who recover successfully learn to avoid the situations that are personal triggers, or problematic, but an alcoholic who attempts recovery without treatment is unlikely to know this, and similarly unlikey to recover. In addition, many alcoholics are unknowingly self-medicating for other mental illnesses such as depression and anxiety. There is a much higher incidence of such illnesses among alcoholics than the general population.

They need help, and proper treatment, not derision and rejection. Unfortunately the NHS doesn't deal well with mental illness, and the options for treatment for alcoholism are limited and inadequate.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Mick F
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Mick F » 20 Jan 2016, 8:33am

Shootist wrote:Not quite my area of interest but this discussion has prompted me to wonder quite how the path to alcoholism works. I would assume that very few people set out to become an alcoholic.
During my service career, we were given lectures now and again about drugs ...... and alcohol.

One of the best illustrations of alcohol use/abuse was a visual representation of three bus routes.
(bear with me on this)

The first bus route is a Green Route.
You can hop on and off the bus anytime you want, go back and forth, and stay using that bus for as long as you want.

Second bus route is a Amber Route.
You get on the bus, but you are restricted where and when you get off. You can go back and forth, but you are restricted. If you get off, you can hop back onto the Green Route if you want ................ or even onto the next route ................

The third route is the Red Route.
You can get on any time, but once you're on, you stay on for the whole journey.

Dunno about other folk, but I've been on the Green Route for most of my life. :lol:
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Shootist » 20 Jan 2016, 10:20am

Vorpal wrote:Alcoholism is a disease. Those with alcoholism have altered brain function and structure, and part of the disease is denial. There is no known cure; some treatments are more effective than others, but none are complete. Abstention can allow an alcoholic to live a normal life, but one of the characteristics of the disease is an impaired control over alcohol use. That means it can be difficult or impossible in some situations for the alcoholic to not drink. Those who recover successfully learn to avoid the situations that are personal triggers, or problematic, but an alcoholic who attempts recovery without treatment is unlikely to know this, and similarly unlikey to recover. In addition, many alcoholics are unknowingly self-medicating for other mental illnesses such as depression and anxiety. There is a much higher incidence of such illnesses among alcoholics than the general population.

They need help, and proper treatment, not derision and rejection. Unfortunately the NHS doesn't deal well with mental illness, and the options for treatment for alcoholism are limited and inadequate.


An interesting post, none of which I could disagree with. However, the part that interests me is the denial stage, and what leads some people to alcoholism. While many alcoholics do start young, I believe that many will start later in life and I think this can be due to socialising or working in a drinking environment. I see no reason to suppose that many yuppie casual heroin users will not, in spite of their best intentions, proceed to addiction, and I can only therefore think that the same could apply to drinkers. Denial is easy to understand if you clearly have an alcohol problem but you are the only one who can't accept that. But what of the person who 'only' drinks three or four pints every night and suffers no untoward social problems? He may continue for many years without addiction but somewhere, hidden in plain sight, there will be a crossover point, but how can he tell? He won't wake up one morning as say to himself "I'm an alcoholic." because nothing has changed from when he wasn't. Nobody, including him, will know where that transition happened but he's hooked for life. While alcoholism can indeed be regarded as a disease, it is mostly self inflicted because people often do not want to know their own weaknesses.

It's also worth remembering that there are different forms of alcoholism. The person who must drink every day, the person who can leave it for one, two, or three months maybe and then goes on a bender for a weekend or even a week. I have to wonder about the mentality of someone willing to tread that path in the face of evidence of the harm it causes, which far outweighs any proposed benefits. To suggest that the government has some sort of hidden agenda, perhaps an increase in tax funds, in publishing health guidelines on consumption is, to be blunt, stupid. Such a suggestion implies they are lying to the public for some secret benefit. One of the symptoms of alcoholism can be paranoia. Another can be an inability to think rationally. Don't light bonfires with petrol.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Shootist » 20 Jan 2016, 10:24am

reohn2 wrote:In the UK,there's a culture been fostered by the drinks industry to sell people as much alcohol as they can get them to pour down their necks in a short time,leaving the streets littered with drunken people of a w/end,and leaving the rest of society to pick up the pieces...


And by the lawmakers, with the connivance of the police by virtue of their indifference to the consequences.
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]

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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby reohn2 » 20 Jan 2016, 10:36am

Shootist wrote:
reohn2 wrote:In the UK,there's a culture been fostered by the drinks industry to sell people as much alcohol as they can get them to pour down their necks in a short time,leaving the streets littered with drunken people of a w/end,and leaving the rest of society to pick up the pieces...


And by the lawmakers, with the connivance of the police by virtue of their indifference to the consequences.


Agreed.

BTW,what colour is that? :wink:
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Re: Alcohol Consumption Guidelines: Do you care?

Postby Shootist » 20 Jan 2016, 11:16am

reohn2 wrote:
Shootist wrote:
reohn2 wrote:In the UK,there's a culture been fostered by the drinks industry to sell people as much alcohol as they can get them to pour down their necks in a short time,leaving the streets littered with drunken people of a w/end,and leaving the rest of society to pick up the pieces...


And by the lawmakers, with the connivance of the police by virtue of their indifference to the consequences.


Agreed.

BTW,what colour is that? :wink:


Just drink alcohol until it's the colour you want it to be. :D
Pacifists cannot accept the statement "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf.", despite it being "grossly obvious."
[George Orwell]