The Mediteranean diet

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al_yrpal
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The Mediteranean diet

Postby al_yrpal » 29 Sep 2016, 9:22am

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... e_btn_link

'They'are always exhorting us to eat this way. Our weekly diet usually includes a curry, steak and chips is a Saturday treat if we are at home, caseroles pretty regularly, liver and bacon, stir frys, Fish pies, Paella, Chilli Con Carne, various chicken dishes, lentils, etc, pretty normal stuff. Pasta based dishes - Spag Bol naturally, chopped cooked sausages with stir fried veg and pasta is about as far as we get on the Mediterranean stuff. We eat plenty of veg and salads most lunchtimes and most of the things mentioned above are rich in vegetables too. I think its misleading to talk about 'Mediterranean', plenty of 'British' food is rich in veg too. I think, 'eat more veg and salad' would be better advice coupled with 'eat less fibre less pasta which makes you fat'.

Al

BTW you may get a pop up asking you to fund the Guardian because its going broke. I just gave them a fiver for the daily email article digest they send me. I am often dismayed by their political and naive environmental fibs but I think they are worth keeping.
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661-Pete
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby 661-Pete » 29 Sep 2016, 9:31am

Far too much red meat in the above diet - but it's fairly typical Anglo-Saxon. Best of luck. Incidentally, "spag bol" is indeed a fine dish, and even better in a vegetarian version such as we do it, based on continental lentils.

Incidentally, "more veg and salad" is inconsistent with "less fibre". Fibre in the diet is an excellent thing. And you'll get it from your greens, as well as wholemeal bread etc.

As to funding the Grauniad - well I don't do it online for the simple reason that we buy the paper copy daily, so we're 'funding' it that way in any case (and killing the odd forest in the process :( ). Leastways, we try to ensure that Waitrose pays for the paper as often as possible (through a useful feature in their loyalty card) - but hopefully the Graun gets its money somehow.
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby Paulatic » 29 Sep 2016, 9:36am

Our diet is similar to yours Al but to stop becoming fat I advise the following

A small plate
A ten hour window in which to eat
No take aways (easy for us as it would be a 30 min round trip I can make it quicker)
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby al_yrpal » 29 Sep 2016, 10:08am

Paulatic wrote:Our diet is similar to yours Al but to stop becoming fat I advise the following

A small plate
A ten hour window in which to eat
No take aways (easy for us as it would be a 30 min round trip I can make it quicker)


Ten hours tick..
No take aways.. - probably one a month?
Small plate - we do control portions, always weighing out rice, lentils, pasta and potatoes

Too much meat - probably yes

Spag bol with lentils, please post the recipe?

Al
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mjr
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby mjr » 29 Sep 2016, 10:52am

al_yrpal wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/sep/29/mediteranean-diet-could-prevent-19000-uk-heart-attack-stroke-deaths?CMP=share_btn_link

'They'are always exhorting us to eat this way. Our weekly diet usually includes

What's that a quote from? It doesn't appear in the linked article that I saw - have they edited it?

al_yrpal wrote:We eat plenty of veg and salads most lunchtimes and most of the things mentioned above are rich in vegetables too. I think its misleading to talk about 'Mediterranean', plenty of 'British' food is rich in veg too. I think, 'eat more veg and salad' would be better advice coupled with 'eat less fibre less pasta which makes you fat'.

Is typical British food rich in veg? Some of our so-called "national dishes" only feature potatoes which are hardly the most nutritious and definitely not in this sense and others typically feature vegetables which have had lots of nutrients boiled out of them.

I think most people should be eating more fibre not less (a consequence of eating more fruit, veg and pulses) and pasta doesn't necessarily make you fat. Travelling to the med countries and then returning home and noticing just how many sickly-looking waddlers are here now does definitely suggest that their typical diet may be somewhat better than ours... although cyclists here generally look better than average. Not that you can tell everything by looking, of course, but it's not really a surprise if health stats reflect it.

The study was of "eating habits among nearly 24,000 people in Norfolk over an average of 12 to 17 years" and Norfolk is generally still a productive growing area, with fresh fruit and vegetables relatively cheap on the markets of many towns and the famous Norwich market, especially orchard fruits, dark greens and local greenhouse-grown salads. I suspect the situation in many other parts of England could be much worse.
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby axel_knutt » 29 Sep 2016, 11:28am

The last time I heard the term Mediterranean Diet I had a dig around to see if anyone had actually defined what it is, and found this and this.

My diet meets the FSA recommendations by a country mile, but it's not "Mediterranean", I don't consume olive oil, wine or sofrito at all.
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby Vorpal » 29 Sep 2016, 11:33am

mjr wrote:I think most people should be eating more fibre not less (a consequence of eating more fruit, veg and pulses) and pasta doesn't necessarily make you fat. Travelling to the med countries and then returning home and noticing just how many sickly-looking waddlers are here now does definitely suggest that their typical diet may be somewhat better than ours... although cyclists here generally look better than average. Not that you can tell everything by looking, of course, but it's not really a surprise if health stats reflect it.

Firstly, although obesity is associated with some medical problems, people who are overweight according to either BMI or modern perceptions are not necessarily unhealthy.

The association between health and exercise is much stronger tha the association between health and weight. Futhermore, a couple of recent studies and one very large meta study have found that people who are overweight have higher longevity than people who are clinically normal weight.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... ID=1555137
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15840860
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ality-risk
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26765423

Of course there are confounding factors, such as differences in diet, economic status, etc. but it holds over very large samples.

So basically, the health stats *don't* necessarily reflect the association you imply.

I don't like the expression 'sickly-looking waddlers' and I think it is unreasonable to apply it to anyone. People come in all different shapes and sizes. Not only is there no justification except fashion for the preference for slim bodies, but people sometimes have valid medical reasons for being overweight.

There are likely to be people on this forum who are substantially overweight and are using their bikes to get fitter.

Support for weight loss and contributory factors (e.g. mental health) in the NHS are poor, and without the tools to tackle obesity, many people run a losing battle, especially if they haven't the economic resources for private help.

Judgemental shaming of people who are overweight or obese doesn't help anyone.
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fausto copy
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby fausto copy » 29 Sep 2016, 11:40am

What's this 10 hour window malarkey?
I've usually had three meals in that time, cereal for breakfast, wholemeal bread and salad for lunch and basically a meat with three veg for tea!
fausto.

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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby mjr » 29 Sep 2016, 11:59am

Vorpal wrote:Firstly, although obesity is associated with some medical problems, people who are overweight according to either BMI or modern perceptions are not necessarily unhealthy.

In the opening sentence, you've just slid back from obese to overweight, moving a rather large group from one side of the comparison to the other and thereby rendering much of the linked studies irrelevant. If you'd like to argue against what I wrote, then please argue against it, not rephrase it into something else that is easier to argue against.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... ID=1555137 concludes "Relative to normal weight, both obesity (all grades) and grades 2 and 3 obesity were associated with significantly higher all-cause mortality."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15840860 concludes "Underweight and obesity, particularly higher levels of obesity, were associated with increased mortality relative to the normal weight category."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ality-risk quotes an study that had not been published and has not been updated to link the published version, which is irresponsible journalism IMO.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26765423 is about overweight.

So basically, the health stats *don't* necessarily reflect the association you imply.

Don't they? See above.

I don't like the expression 'sickly-looking waddlers' and I think it is unreasonable to apply it to anyone. People come in all different shapes and sizes. Not only is there no justification except fashion for the preference for slim bodies, but people sometimes have valid medical reasons for being overweight.

Sure there can be medical reasons and I've been both overweight and underweight during my life. I'm sorry you don't like how I expressed it, but I feel it is reasonable to encourage healthy lifestyles and the probable consequences of them, as well as discourage unhealthy ones, especially in a system where basically most of us pay for most of most people's healthcare.

There are likely to be people on this forum who are substantially overweight and are using their bikes to get fitter.

So what? I wish those who get cycling and take control all power!

Support for weight loss and contributory factors (e.g. mental health) in the NHS are poor, and without the tools to tackle obesity, many people run a losing battle, especially if they haven't the economic resources for private help.

And that is truly a serious problem, indeed, as are the number of evidence-free profiteers targetting both of those conditions.
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby landsurfer » 29 Sep 2016, 12:13pm

I'm 4 stone over weight but was 8 ..!
Cycling is my exercise and the initial weight gain coincided with stopping cycling for 15 years due to work issues.
My experience of the Mediterranean Diet (MD) has been through living and working in Cyprus, Italy and Sardinia and the understanding of the MD in the UK is not what you actually see on the ground.
One of the engineers i worked with in Cyprus would unwrap a whole cucumber and a bread roll ... that was his lunch.
There appears to be little meat eaten and then usually chicken.
Fish is not as prominent as the ad's on tv would have you think.
Vegetables, fruit and bread products where the staples.
And oil on everything !

Not far off a vegetarian diet.
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby Paulatic » 29 Sep 2016, 1:44pm

fausto copy wrote:What's this 10 hour window malarkey?
I've usually had three meals in that time, cereal for breakfast, wholemeal bread and salad for lunch and basically a meat with three veg for tea!
fausto.

Perfect..... except you're slacking a bit. I've a bigger breakfast than that and usually a cake with my mid morning coffee. Then the body has 14 hrs to deal with it all. :D
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby Paulatic » 29 Sep 2016, 1:52pm

Spag bol with lentils, please post the recipe?


Just replace beef mince in any recipe with prepared (soaked and boiled til soft) brown or green lentils.
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby Vorpal » 29 Sep 2016, 2:28pm

mjr wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Firstly, although obesity is associated with some medical problems, people who are overweight according to either BMI or modern perceptions are not necessarily unhealthy.

In the opening sentence, you've just slid back from obese to overweight, moving a rather large group from one side of the comparison to the other and thereby rendering much of the linked studies irrelevant. If you'd like to argue against what I wrote, then please argue against it, not rephrase it into something else that is easier to argue against.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... ID=1555137 concludes "Relative to normal weight, both obesity (all grades) and grades 2 and 3 obesity were associated with significantly higher all-cause mortality."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15840860 concludes "Underweight and obesity, particularly higher levels of obesity, were associated with increased mortality relative to the normal weight category."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ality-risk quotes an study that had not been published and has not been updated to link the published version, which is irresponsible journalism IMO.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26765423 is about overweight.

So basically, the health stats *don't* necessarily reflect the association you imply.

Don't they? See above.


I think I was quite clear. Obesity is associated with health problems. Being overweight is not necessarily.

mjr wrote:
I don't like the expression 'sickly-looking waddlers' and I think it is unreasonable to apply it to anyone. People come in all different shapes and sizes. Not only is there no justification except fashion for the preference for slim bodies, but people sometimes have valid medical reasons for being overweight.

Sure there can be medical reasons and I've been both overweight and underweight during my life. I'm sorry you don't like how I expressed it, but I feel it is reasonable to encourage healthy lifestyles and the probable consequences of them, as well as discourage unhealthy ones, especially in a system where basically most of us pay for most of most people's healthcare.
There are likely to be people on this forum who are substantially overweight and are using their bikes to get fitter.

So what? I wish those who get cycling and take control all power!

So, you've just insulted them by calling them 'sickly-looking waddles'. Insulting people is discouragement, not encouragement. Fat-shaming is awful. It doesn't encourage anyone to get fit, and it can do quite the opposite, driving someone into depression, if they are repeatedly shamed.
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby axel_knutt » 29 Sep 2016, 2:38pm

Paulatic wrote:
Spag bol with lentils, please post the recipe?


Just replace beef mince in any recipe with prepared (soaked and boiled til soft) brown or green lentils.


Or soya mince. I use half and half, it tastes more meaty than with all mince.
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Re: The Mediteranean diet

Postby mjr » 29 Sep 2016, 3:39pm

Vorpal wrote:I think I was quite clear. Obesity is associated with health problems. Being overweight is not necessarily.

So you mean that when I wrote about people who look sick and waddle, you thought that I meant people who are merely overweight? Wow.

mjr wrote:
There are likely to be people on this forum who are substantially overweight and are using their bikes to get fitter.

So what? I wish those who get cycling and take control all power!

So, you've just insulted them by calling them 'sickly-looking waddles'.

No, overweight people are not who I meant at all. Not even merely obese. I was trying to suggest that the increased prevalence of those who are at the most extreme end of obesity and look ill with it may be a visible symptom of a public health problem in this country.

Vorpal wrote:Insulting people is discouragement, not encouragement. Fat-shaming is awful. It doesn't encourage anyone to get fit, and it can do quite the opposite, driving someone into depression, if they are repeatedly shamed.

I feel there serious real problems in your narrative, such as regarding "overweight" as the same thing as "fat", decrying descriptions of a subset of the so-called super obese as "insulting" or "shaming", and apparently denying that many people need discouragement of missteps as well as encouragement of good - both stick and carrot.
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