Keep away from ibuprofen?

mercalia
Posts: 14630
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by mercalia »

"Commonly prescribed painkillers including ibuprofen increase the likelihood of having a heart attack within the first month of taking them if consumed in high doses, a study suggests.

All five nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) examined could raise the risk as early as the first week of use, an international team of researchers found.

They concluded that there was a greater than 90% probability that all the NSAIDs they studied were associated with a heightened risk of heart attack"

whats a high dose?
use paracetomol or aspirin instead?


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/09/common-painkillers-ibuprofen-nsaids-raise-risk-heart-attack-study?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=225240&subid=7646217&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

NHS info
"It's a good idea to ask a pharmacist or doctor for advice before taking an NSAID if you:
•are over 65 years of age"

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Anti-inflammatories-non-steroidal/Pages/Introduction.aspx
User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by meic »

The Guardian report doesnt say what the higher risk is compared against.
Is it higher than no drugs, other drugs or people in perfect health with no illness at all?
Yma o Hyd
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by Tangled Metal »

There's risks in taking any drugs. Aspirin can cause bleeding in the intestines, stomach and brain. Haemorrhagic bleeding in the brain I think was one description. Paracetamol too has side effects.

I once had a friend who worked in NHS labs. One of his colleagues was a pharmacologist specialising in pain relief drug interactions. My friend told me the gist of a conversation they had about the safety of common counter pain relief. His friend basically said that potentially all pain relief has serious tasks and the dosage which it becomes dangerous is close to the recommended dose. With some it's as little as forgetting you have already taken your last dose of the day and taking another dose by mistake. If you're susceptible that's enough to cause harm.

However the benefits versus risks seems not to prevent doctors and experts prescribing or recommending them. Like any drug, look at the side effects and take advice if you think you have them. BTW some drugs cause problems if you stop taking them without supervision. Certain beta-blockers and anti depressants spring to mind.

Personally I won't stop taking pain relief as I need it. All risks appear in the box with the drugs. You read them and decide whether to take them. Every drug is a risk vs benefit estimation.
User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by meic »

There is a sub-group in the cycling world who are taking these ibuprofens on a regular basis.
They are always riding hard and pushing at the limits and taking these to help continue despite pain and minor injury. There is a measure of lifestyle choice in their usage.

I certainly would consider it equally likely that the increase in heart attack rates isnt causal.
Yma o Hyd
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Their choice and you'd hope based on reading the information contained in the leaflet that comes in the packet. However I doubt they do consider the risks from the way you describe their drug use somehow.
pwa
Posts: 17370
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by pwa »

And when you are in real pain your priorities change. The last time I had toothache I would have taken anything that got rid of it. Anything.
User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by meic »

Yes, I have been there and the fact that paracetamol will cause liver damage and even death is the only thing that makes me not extend the maximum dose and shorten the times between.
Yma o Hyd
Bonefishblues
Posts: 11010
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Ibuprofen's a very useful drug, I find.

I also take low dose aspirin every night (81mg dose)
User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by meic »

Is the ibupofen to deal with the results of that day's cycling or for a longer term and possibly non-sport related pain?
Yma o Hyd
User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 10593
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by 661-Pete »

Should this thread be in Health & Fitness, perhaps?

I think this is one of our incessant medical scare stories that abound in the media these days - with plenty of internet backing. It is true that certain people - those with high blood pressure especially - should avoid high or frequent dosage of NSAIDs. But, as it happens, I had to take some ibuprofen over the last few days - painful sciatica, which incidentally has been keeping me off the bike :( . However it's easing off now, and I've stopped the painkillers: I hope to be out on the bike later today, albeit a short ride only across town. I never took more than 400mg/day which is a pretty low dose.

My advice is, if you're taking ibuprofen or any other NSAID upon the advice of your doctor or other medical practitioner, or if you're only taking a low dose as I was, don't stop without seeking advice first.

And don't take ibuprofen as a 'preventative'. I've read about this sort of habit, amongst many people. 'Habit' being the operative word.... :roll:
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by Tangled Metal »

I knew someone who overdosed on paracetamol. She nearly died. She was in so much pain she couldn't remember or didn't care how much she had taken. Took a long time to recover fully.

My mum has had issues with dentists who didn't believe her when the anaesthetic didn't work at all. She sat through a couple of hours treatment feeling it all. Then over two weeks with pain that was almost as bad. That's when we learnt about paracetamol and ibuprofen being safe to take together in staggered doses to take the edge off the peaks and troughs of medication. It's just annoying how the times between doses is different for them.

BTW dental operation without anaesthetic that works is worse than a difficult childbirth apparently. I suspect I'm the same with the resistance to certain anaesthetics, because local anaesthetic didn't work on me when I needed stitches once.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by reohn2 »

Story alert:-
16 months ago before a rough MTB ride I took 400g of Ibuprofen(not 1gram as previously posted) and 1g of Paracetamol for pain relieve in an arthritic hip joint,I was on no other medication prescribed or otherwise at the time
I hour later on a stiff climb I had a heart attack.
During my 4 day stay in hospital I had an Angiogram,the consultant who carried out the procedure said I had the heart and arteries of a man half my age which he put down to cycling,not smoking,no alcohol,and a vegetarian diet, and said he was puzzled as to what had caused it.
My heart rate during my stay in hospital didn't rise above it's normal(I check it regularly) 55bpm and only went above 60bpm when the twenty-something Ali McGraw look a like nurse came on the ward(WOW! :shock: :D ).
A couple of months later I had an MRI scan and was informed I had 'very slight scarring' to the heart muscle.
The consultant discharged me 6months later saying the HA was slight,probably due to stress and not to worry.
Easier said than done.
Unless you've experienced it you've no idea what it does to your confidence.

I make no claims,I know nothing about over the counter medication other than what I read on the packet and what's on the 'net,nor did I make any possible connection between the HA and Ibuprofen/Paracetamol for some time after the event,however......
EDITED
Last edited by reohn2 on 10 May 2017, 5:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
mercalia
Posts: 14630
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by mercalia »

661-Pete wrote:Should this thread be in Health & Fitness, perhaps?

I think this is one of our incessant medical scare stories that abound in the media these days - with plenty of internet backing. It is true that certain people - those with high blood pressure especially - should avoid high or frequent dosage of NSAIDs. But, as it happens, I had to take some ibuprofen over the last few days - painful sciatica, which incidentally has been keeping me off the bike :( . However it's easing off now, and I've stopped the painkillers: I hope to be out on the bike later today, albeit a short ride only across town. I never took more than 400mg/day which is a pretty low dose.

My advice is, if you're taking ibuprofen or any other NSAID upon the advice of your doctor or other medical practitioner, or if you're only taking a low dose as I was, don't stop without seeking advice first.

And don't take ibuprofen as a 'preventative'. I've read about this sort of habit, amongst many people. 'Habit' being the operative word.... :roll:


by all mean move to health and fitness if appropriate - I didnt know there was a sub category dont often see the full index.
irc
Posts: 5192
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by irc »

reohn2 wrote:Story alert:-
16 months ago before a rough MTB ride I took 1g of Ibuprofen and 1g of Paracetamol ...


Is that not around 3 times the recommended dose? The ibuprofen pkt I have states 1 or 2 200mg tabs 3 times daily.

My ibuprofen story isd that I had a foot injury for 6 to 9 months. Plantar fasciitus I believe according to symptoms. Stopped me jogging at all though I could walk or cycle. I tried ibuprofen at recommended dose 400mg 3 or 4 times a day. For a few days at a time. Stoped the pain but didn't cure it.

Then I attended hospital for a bad sprain/fracture. X-ray eliminated fracture. Nurse practitioner advised higher dose of ibuprofen I think - 600 or 800mg (for wrist sprain) for a week based on my size and weight). Helped with sprain and and also completely cured foot issue. Of course with a body weight of 16.5 stone I was probably under dosing at 400mg as doses depend on body weight.

So I think ibuprofen is great. I'd be wary of taking it in any dose for an extended period though.

As for increased risk. As already said from what base. A 50% increase in risk for an person with no risk factors is next to nothing and presumably only raises the risk while taking the drug. Risk will go back to normal soon after.

My perception is that paracetamol is dangerous because the toxic dose is very close to the therapeutic dose. Can't say offhand where I got this from but I'd be more wary of high/frequent doses of paracetamol than any other over the counter painkiller.
Last edited by irc on 10 May 2017, 12:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
AMMoffat
Posts: 242
Joined: 1 Dec 2007, 1:05pm

Re: Keep away from ibuprofen?

Post by AMMoffat »

I'm prepared to believe that ibuprofen can have that effect in some people. About 15 years ago, before I was diagnosed with arthritis in my knees, my GP prescribed me the NSAID Vioxx for knee pain from playing hockey. A day after I started taking them I began to get major heart palpitations which I had never suffered previously. At that point I took the tablets back to my GP and asked him to prescribe something else. The symptoms disappeared as soon as I stopped taking it. About 2 years later I read that Vioxx had been withdrawn due to it being implicated in causing heart attacks and strokes. I take from the experience that examples of this type of drug can have that effect if you are susceptible, the problem is how to know in advance if you are susceptible before you keel over.
Post Reply