mjr wrote:Can I be the first to suggest the My Fitness Pal that seems to get a lot of love on this forum? It sounds sane but I've never used it because it's not in my app store though
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
ianrobo wrote:You would not lose that as muscle loss after being ill for a few days, likely that is all water loss
Possibly. But not necessarily. I lost 3/4 of a stone during 5 days in hospital for surgery (which didn't take out anything of any weight, and I'd had before without losing any weight). I was very well hydrated, and was, of course, not taking exercise. It was pure stress. It stayed off for months, as the stress remained due to the problems I'd experienced in the hospital, so again, definitely not water. I can easily lose a couple of pounds, and not merely temporarily, if I'm under severe stress for a few days, despite still eating normally and keeping my fluid intake up. Humans vary......
Flinders wrote:I lost 3/4 of a stone during 5 days in hospital for surgery (which didn't take out anything of any weight, and I'd had before without losing any weight). I was very well hydrated, and was, of course, not taking exercise. It was pure stress.
I had trouble shifting the weight , did cross country walking, cycling diet ect ect.. Then made the change to a KETO lifestyle, it took about 4 weeks to get in the swing and was loseing around 4lb week . now stablised a bit but feeling lighter and fitter, took ages to get used to burning a diifrent food source for engery but it works.. you just have to stay with it. I was type 2 diabetic for over 15 years till I went KETO four weeks late almost normal blood sugar and no Meds... although still on some for my bipolar issue. I belive with time that I may find a solution to that too.
No hunger now on a 20/4 keto fast... feeling better each day
TimeTraveller wrote:Then made the change to a KETO lifestyle, it took about 4 weeks to get in the swing and was loseing around 4lb week . now stablised a bit but feeling lighter and fitter, took ages to get used to burning a diifrent food source for engery but it works.. you just have to stay with it.
I'm currently reading Tom Watson's book "Downsizing" it's very positive, I'm going to have to give it a proper try (As opposed to the couple of half hearted previous attempts) How much did you lose and over what period of time?
Flinders wrote:I lost 3/4 of a stone during 5 days in hospital for surgery (which didn't take out anything of any weight, and I'd had before without losing any weight). I was very well hydrated, and was, of course, not taking exercise. It was pure stress.
What body component do you think decreased?
Jonathan
(3/4 stone is about 5 kg)
You are replying to a post that's over two years old
10 years ago I was give a trial medication for my bipolar, didnt work out and I gained weight. I was at start 216lbs, one years forwards i went upto 365lbs. now I had been under the doctors eye during this period so thought such a gain would have set off alarm bells "but no" since then I have tried several calorie restrictive diets and some have done ok for maybe 6 -7 months but could never remove the hunger and craving issues, last year i noticed positive information about many peoples success on the low carb or keto life style (note life style not diet). so I moved over to it and got my wieght down by 65lbs.. Now many can say that there would be muscle loss as well I cant argue with that BUT considering before my diagnosis for biplor followed by diabetes typr 2 (due to my rapid weight gain) I was a keen cross country runner and aslo cycled about 220 miles a week. I hope I have held or regained some of that fittness since changing over to keto. I feel better and have reduce those nasty chemicals to fix what the medical profession had in my eyes cause (wrong meds). so yes I think I've dropped quite a bit of the body fat over time, and maybe some muscle mass but as the weight continues to fall my health improves and my fitness will increase as I get out more riding ect.... and a small but good side affect is that my bipolar swings are reducing with the gains from more exercise.
I think these threads often seem to follow a similar pattern. I’m generally keen to read them and have been looking at various sources over time in the media. There is a lot of information of various viewpoints and many more diets that offer to solve the problem of an expanding weight problem. I don’t think anybody needs to be told that obesity and type 2 diabetes has rocketed in the last 40 or 50 years. Just looking at old photographs makes it evident. Everyone looks so thin!!
I’ve struggled with the same issues and not found a conclusive answer but I do think we have been subjected to a lot of miss information by the food industry and it’s control of organisations that appear at first to be government led advisory bodies, most of which seem more the problem than the solution.
Getting your head straight is probably the place to start. That’s not an easy thing to achieve but trying to lose weight when you already feel low is hard. Thinking that you’ll never be happy until you’re thin is self destructive. There’s lots more to say about that but just be a little easier on yourself and enjoy the present without expecting to be perfect. Hoping an almost impossible transformation based on pure willpower and a long haul calorie deficit is a big ask and probably won’t solve underlying problems. I would suggest seeking out Professor Edward Bullmore. I haven’t read his book yet (The Inflamed Mind) but hearing him interviewed I felt he had a lot to say about what drives us to be self destructive.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s when I think a lot of dietary damage was done with trying to cut out fat (particularly saturated but all fat was demonised to me even olive oil etc). It led to a lot of low fat high sugar productised food like substances that were quick to cook and had little nutritional value and left you hungry. I think BBC2s ‘The Men Who Made Us Fat’ by Jacques Peretti was the first thing that made me think outside dieting trends and think about the whole food industry. The stuff about dismissing John Yudkin was an academic disgrace and set us back decades.
KETO diets sound a bit extreme but as long as they are low in processed food I think a lot of people thrive on them compared to the current western diet. Just don’t go dirty KETO! Tim Noakes is worth checking out. Zoe Harcombe was a more academic and independent viewpoint. Her summaries on sensationalist tabloid claims are very thorough and apply real scientific rigger to some rather poor studies. I found explanations on how the body metabolises fats and carbs interesting and the role inulin has made me consider the what we eat might be more important than how much in moderating weight. She blows a few myths away.
I think the basic theory of calories in vs calories out is a scientific fact but it really applies to simple closed systems, I heard that calorie as a fuel measure was developed for steam engines and is probably as sophisticated as it can cope with. The body is a far more complex bit of kit and unless you live in a sealed box is not in a closed system. There’s McDonalds, pizzas, beer, confectionary shelves and tonnes of clever advertising and addiction based techniques to lure you in. Environment is a big factor, along with genes and lifestyle and it is currently stacked in favour of those with a commercial rather than health interest.
I think the best approach is get some exercise for your physical and mental wellbeing, sleep, relaxation and try a proper Mediterranean diet. That is where processed food (including bread and pasta) are excluded and lots of variety of coloured veg and some fruit is eaten along with good protein like oily fish, eggs, some white meat, cheese, yoghourt, nuts and fermented foods. I know for me alcohol is the key but a glass of red wine is supposed to be OK. Michael Mosely’s stuff is easy to read. His 5:2 has been updated but the Clever Gut and 800 books are worth reading. The 800 is focussed on more serious issues but it can be read by anyone and summarises all his stuff in a few hundred pages with references to the key studies that underpin the philosophy. Also in the broader field Dr Rangan Chatterjee is well worth listening to on his podcast if you’re into lifestyle medicine.
But it's also worth considering the nature of evidence in complex fields. And when anyone makes any assertion related to diet along the lines that A causes B to check the level of evidence... is it an anecdote, an expert opinion, an extrapolation from underlying science, a case series, a trial, a controlled trial, a review of multiple trials... ?
Whenever the topic of diet comes up, at some point the Mediterranean diet appears. Why? The reason, it is a healthy diet. But one only has to watch a travelogue on tv, if it is in the Mediterranean there will be people who are the same build as the rest of us. Thick waistline etc. Do they exercise more? Are they more laid back than us?
In years gone by there were millions of tons of coal produced on little more than bread and fat. Millions of tons of shipping produced on little more than bread and fat. Millions of tons of steel produced etc. etc. One reason why most people in old photos appear slim was down to exercise and lack of food.These people had a very active lifestyle, no cars, little public transport, hard physical work, far more walking than us, and so on. Their health problems were probably more to do with a lack of vitamins and minerals. During the last war, food was rationed, the rations were designed to provide sufficient calories to keep the nation healthy and able to work. There was no mention of a Mediterranean diet. Meat, potato and two veg was the order of the day. Bread played a large part in diet, but would not be what is passed off as bread today. Do people confuse body shape with body size? Genetics play a part, shire horse, racing thoroughbred horse. Different size, shape, both getting plenty of exercise and a good diet. We should all probably eat less, move more, and be less concerned with our body shape. Nutrition is a very complex science, experts do not always agree. Going back to the Mediterranean diet, could someone answer, where do Inuit people get their five a day? Where do dessert nomads get their oily fish? who came up with the idea of five a day?
RH20 wrote:Whenever the topic of diet comes up, at some point the Mediterranean diet appears. Why? .. Going back to the Mediterranean diet, could someone answer, where do Inuit people get their five a day? Where do dessert nomads get their oily fish? who came up with the idea of five a day?
The human body is very adaptable. It can survive consuming a wide variety of diets. That doesn't mean those diets are optimal, or even particularly healthy in the long run.
Following a 'healthy' diet can be confusing given such conflicting advice out there. The 'Mediterranean diet' just happens to be one of the reasonable ones, its still in vogue, and most people can understand it. That's why it often pops up in conversation. Even if there are 'better' ones out there!
RH20 wrote: who came up with the idea of five a day?
It was apparently an arbitrary number, the message was to be eat more fruit and veg, but that was considered too vague. So they looked at what the average person was eating and added two.
I think there is a lot of advise that suggests a specific diet to solve all ills. No diet will do that Mediterranean diet is just another label and it probably doesn't even apply to the region any more as they adopt processed alternatives, maybe someone knows the figure who actually eat that way there. I would certainly say that it doesn't mean pizza and spag bol.
The issue of restricted diet due to a shortage is probably an issue but I don't think it answers the whole question. In my parents time following the war people were fairly well fed though I don't doubt poverty was a real issue in some places. In the 70s I don't think widespread starvation was the issue in the UK, we just had a largely unprocessed diet. Today though the poorest in society seem to be the fattest. I think that is an issue with cheap processed food. I remember trying to stay healthy and having to pass a tray of 12 sugar coated ring donuts for a £1 in my local ASDA. I resisted but why do that to people other than keep them hooked on cheap food?
I think the point of genetic makeup is a worthy point. It affects how we cope with food differently and some people and groups will have a adapted to very restrictive diets. It reminds me of the story of a middle aged man who from childhood would only eat bacon sandwiches. He was slim and in perfect health although I don't know if he is still alive.
The most extreme diet I've heard of is a reduction of everything down to just beef strips and slightly salted water. That is too much for me and I'd imagine scurvy would be the result but some people apparently adapted to it and thrived, though I'm not aware of actual trials. I think if anything it says more about the rubbish they probably eat before but there are some reduction diets that eliminate all possible dietary problem foods. I wouldn't consider that unless I was suffering serious health issues such as IBS, it takes 10 weeks just to see if it works I think.
Saying all that what I think marks the healthy Mediterranean labelled diet is what also made historic meat, beer and bread diets, they were far less processed. The bread was traditionally produced and had limited ingredients. The meat, by and large was probably local and what would probably be organic today. And along with the beer it was all probably putting back a lot of used up energy rather than on top of an already full person who had been sitting down all day.
As well as being largely unprocessed the Med diet encourages lots of plants in lots of variety and promotes good protein of fish, diary, eggs and legumes. I think that is what makes it the go to for advocates like Michael Mosely and did I mention the red wine....
I'm off to practice some of what I preach on a bike ride followed by salmon and steamed veg.
RH20 wrote: who came up with the idea of five a day?
It was apparently an arbitrary number, the message was to be eat more fruit and veg, but that was considered too vague. So they looked at what the average person was eating and added two.
It started out as arbitrary but the evidence of benefit is accumulating.
RH20 wrote: who came up with the idea of five a day?
It was apparently an arbitrary number, the message was to be eat more fruit and veg, but that was considered too vague. So they looked at what the average person was eating and added two.
It started out as arbitrary but the evidence of benefit is accumulating.
I thought your link demonstrates the arbitrary nature of the message. It says the current recommendation is 800g, which would be closer to ten, with some recommending seven. The UK is unlikely to change the promotion of five a day, because it's the message that is more likely to have the desired effect of getting people to eat more, not because five is the right number.
