Benefit of STI

mercalia
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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby mercalia » 10 Oct 2017, 12:11pm

bigjim wrote:
Mick F wrote:
Stevek76 wrote:Think I do similar, if I'm at maximum power, the pressure on my posterior is essentially zero.
That's the way I see it.

Standing up?
Maybe I do, but not actually standing like honking.

Never thought about what my posterior is up to, or maximum power. I just enjoy riding my bike and standing up is part of the fun. Done it since I was ten years old.


honking is very wasteful of energy - keeping moving your body up and down against gravity? torso dont remain in one fixed position relative to bike?

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meic
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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby meic » 10 Oct 2017, 12:12pm

STIs encourage constant tweaking of the gear to little avail

The stimulus to change gear isnt from the fingers. It is from the eyes seeing something ahead or the legs complaining. If you change gear when it isnt necesary, you will suffer as a consequence of having done so because you will then be in a "wrong" gear.
The lack of an easy changer will encourage you to hold a wrong gear for longer than is optimum but you will very rapidly learn not to change from a "right" gear to a "wrong" gear, just because you can.
Yma o Hyd

mercalia
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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby mercalia » 10 Oct 2017, 12:16pm

Samuel D wrote:You might ask what good is accomplished with such frequent changes. That’s a shift every 70 metres on average. Less frequent shifts, eliminating some shifts entirely (e.g. one down followed by one up), may make no difference to your ride except make it more relaxed.

I see people changing down one gear at a time across half the cassette at red lights, followed by changing up again on the acceleration. Does this serve any useful purpose? Sometimes I make a single shift. Usually I don’t. On the acceleration, sometimes I stand and sometimes I sit, but regardless the change in cadence, muscles used, and force versus speed is positively welcome.

STIs encourage constant tweaking of the gear to little avail, in my experience. Everyone is different, though.


how old, and fit/overweight and strong are you? sti are a good thing for us of modest strength and fitness who other otherwise would have to strain a lot their knees and legs

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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby Samuel D » 10 Oct 2017, 1:08pm

meic wrote:
STIs encourage constant tweaking of the gear to little avail

The stimulus to change gear isnt from the fingers. It is from the eyes seeing something ahead or the legs complaining. If you change gear when it isnt necesary, you will suffer as a consequence of having done so because you will then be in a "wrong" gear.

I think the stimulus is from the head, which is also where the principal suffering is. Deprived of continuously variable gears, the head suffers less and the body seems to work anyway. There are even people who volunteer to ride bicycles with no ability to change gear at all. They say they enjoy it.

I used STIs for many years, but I now prefer down-tube shifters for a host of practical and esoteric reasons. I am only saying that in changing gear less frequently than I would if it were even easier, my cycling has improved. Did the remote control improve television or encourage unsatisfying channel surfing? The answer is debatable.

Of course I can still easily change gear if the need arises. I do so often without noticeable effort.

Mercalia: mid-thirties, not overweight, fairly fit, not strong.

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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby meic » 10 Oct 2017, 1:17pm

I do so often without noticeable effort.

Been there, done that for tens of thousands of miles.
It is those times where it really wasnt a good idea to take my hands of the bars which swayed it.
Once having the improved control over the gear changing, I lapped it up.
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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby Stevek76 » 10 Oct 2017, 2:22pm

Samuel D wrote:You might ask what good is accomplished with such frequent changes. That’s a shift every 70 metres on average. Less frequent shifts, eliminating some shifts entirely (e.g. one down followed by one up), may make no difference to your ride except make it more relaxed


Not so sure on that, there isn't really a conscious thought process involved for the me the vast majority of the time. I find it's more like meic says. It was actually quite tricky to keep track of the number of changes because of that.

It would take conscious effort to not shift, bit like not scratching an itch. And sure some people might love the zen of that, but it's not for me. I'm the same driving, I work the gears more than most and actually find it frustrating to passenger in a car with someone who's lazy with them, especially if they manage to have the engine whining on for a whole mile in 3rd @ 30mph (the zen thing does come in useful there... :D )

I'm aware there are some who love the simplicity of single speeds and consider gears too complex but I'm unconvinced by the arguments, at least for me.

The way I see it, I've already dedicated a fair chunk of neural circuitry to staying on a bike in the first place (this is not an easy thing mathematics/physics wise, there is an awful lot of subconscious processing the brain does to keep us on the things at all), I've dedicated a further substantial chunk to not dying/getting harmed (i.e. identifying, tracking and predicting the likely movements of multiple hazards and the speed/path I need to take to minimise my risk to those). I'm not convinced the small amount extra I've apparently dedicated to effectively function as a smart automatic gearbox is somehow changing the activity from being relaxing to not relaxing, as far as total brain power spent getting from home to work or back that seems likely to be chicken feed.

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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby mjr » 10 Oct 2017, 2:41pm

mercalia wrote:expanding the question of why some here love sti and some dont. A real puzzle? I wonder the answer is combination a) how big your hands are b) where you put the sti c) the size/shape of the handle bars d) your preferred rest position. My handle bars are I think smallish and I have my sti high up on the drop bend and I like to have the palm of my hand over the curve from the flats with fingers towards the sti - my index finger can just move the lower lever of the sti and moving my hand up the large lever - backwards and forwards in a flash.

a) Large (glove size), b) so that I can reach the levers most comfortably from both hoods and drops - not sure how to describe that, c) 40cm SR Road Custom World Champion but I've used STI more on 38cm Reparto Corse Compacts, d) the drops.


Stevek76 wrote:Out of interest I started keeping track of how many times I change gear (a change being a distinct selection of gear so downshifting 6 cogs = 1 change) on my ~2.5mile commute, it seems to be around 40-60. Probably fairly good indication of my like of combined brake/shifters there.

Sounds like "hunting". If I catch myself doing that, I usually find out later from the GPS recording that I was slower than usual.

Stevek76 wrote:
Brucey wrote:I have never found STIs overwhelmingly ergonomic; in point of fact they seem to strain the wrist in a peculiar way. I am driven to wonder if they, erm might suit certain folk better than others; the defining feature might well be that those folk that are best suited to them naturally adopt the same kind of posture as those who would be dragging their knuckles on the floor.... :wink:


I'd have thought the reverse if anything? Flat bars require (nearly) full pronation of the wrist to use which is typically the way the hands are dangled while knuckle dragging, typical hoods/drops require a more supinated wrist/hands. :)

I don't understand what flat bars have to do with this. I prefer distinct levers on drop barred bikes.

mercalia wrote:how old, and fit/overweight and strong are you? sti are a good thing for us of modest strength and fitness who other otherwise would have to strain a lot their knees and legs

40something, not very fit (above average but I think the average is poor), not overweight and not particularly strong. I also don't understand what knee/leg strain has to do with STIs - if STIs do make shifting easier (and I'm not convinced) then it would seem likely to encourage people straining their legs attempting a higher gear at too low a cadence then shifting back down, when they should wait to see if they start to spin out the lower one before shifting up.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby mjr » 10 Oct 2017, 2:44pm

Stevek76 wrote:It would take conscious effort to not shift, bit like not scratching an itch. And sure some people might love the zen of that, but it's not for me. I'm the same driving, I work the gears more than most and actually find it frustrating to passenger in a car with someone who's lazy with them, especially if they manage to have the engine whining on for a whole mile in 3rd @ 30mph (the zen thing does come in useful there... :D )

One problem with that analogy is that far more cyclists do the equivalent of chuntering along in 5th @ 30mph ignoring the "shift ↓" light flashing on the dashboard after shifting up too soon.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby Brucey » 11 Oct 2017, 9:10am

when modelling the ergonomics of STIs and the need for oversized steerers and handlebars on touring bikes, I wonder if the designers used something like this....?

Image

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

mercalia
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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby mercalia » 11 Oct 2017, 10:27am

Brucey wrote:when modelling the ergonomics of STIs and the need for oversized steerers and handlebars on touring bikes, I wonder if the designers used something like this....?

Image

cheers


ah I wish that was me :lol:

this is more like me

Image

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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby Stevek76 » 12 Oct 2017, 5:58pm

mjr wrote:
Stevek76 wrote:Out of interest I started keeping track of how many times I change gear (a change being a distinct selection of gear so downshifting 6 cogs = 1 change) on my ~2.5mile commute, it seems to be around 40-60. Probably fairly good indication of my like of combined brake/shifters there.

Sounds like "hunting". If I catch myself doing that, I usually find out later from the GPS recording that I was slower than usual.


More a result of the ~12 or so junctions/crossings (plus possible additional pedestrian negotiation on the longer stretch of 'shared use' pavement) on the way and that I tend to upshift gradually when accelerating back up to speed.

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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby Annoying Twit » 15 Oct 2017, 12:14am

I'm just back from a 50k ride. My STI shifters were running fine (they seem a bit lubrication dependent) and shifting was working excellently, and the shifters themselves were easy to use.

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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby foxyrider » 15 Oct 2017, 8:26pm

mercalia wrote:
honking is very wasteful of energy - keeping moving your body up and down against gravity? torso dont remain in one fixed position relative to bike?


Why is your body moving up and down just because you are out of the saddle? Do you bob up and down when you are seated? 'honking' might be less efficient than being seated but sometimes it is a better solution, steep climbs for example where you might want to move your weight forward or 'get over' your gear.

Anyone can do it and some look like a Gibbon on a climbing frame but with practice you waste no more energy than being seated.

Never have worked out why some people bob up and down, sway side to side when riding.
Convention? what's that then?

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Re: Benefit of STI

Postby mercalia » 15 Oct 2017, 8:32pm

foxyrider wrote:
mercalia wrote:
honking is very wasteful of energy - keeping moving your body up and down against gravity? torso dont remain in one fixed position relative to bike?


Why is your body moving up and down just because you are out of the saddle? Do you bob up and down when you are seated? 'honking' might be less efficient than being seated but sometimes it is a better solution, steep climbs for example where you might want to move your weight forward or 'get over' your gear.

Anyone can do it and some look like a Gibbon on a climbing frame but with practice you waste no more energy than being seated.

Never have worked out why some people bob up and down, sway side to side when riding.


well I will have to keep my eyes open and see how people move when out of the saddle to see if their centre of gravity does change. I assumed it did as the legs are going up and down like pistons with no fixed point as there would be if sitting, and the torso would also tend to go up and down or sidways what ever