Benefit of STI

mercalia
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by mercalia »

well as I said earlier seems like RSX was the pinnacle for STI as seems all ok for me once set up :D The only issue I have is if changing onto the big ring of the triple front if the chain is jumping around can jump off the large ring when I change to it - I have just learnt to doit in a relaxed way. A soln would be some kind of circullar chain guard and it seems the large ring has postions for such, one day may drill them out and find one.
reohn2
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by reohn2 »

mjr wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Yet until very recently almost every MTB sold uses STI either douple or triple systems without much complaint.

I thought they were SIS not STI but I might not be up to date with the terminology. For whatever reason, I've only witnessed the extreme cable tension release on brifters. Also, a lot of MTBs have dogtooth chain-catchers but I don't think that's primarily to correct the cable release chain drops.

They're both SIS(Shimano Index System) and both STI(Shimano Total Integration).both systems employ rapid release of the front mech spring rather than a "graceful fall" of the chain on the down change that's the feature of friction downshifting.
As for road STIs trimming clicks and set up I've never found them a problem to use on 9sp there aren't any on 7 and 8sp systems just two clicks for a double and three for a triple.There is no trimming clicks on MTB STI's upto 10sp,but it's a different mech and cable pull to road.
Either system stays in tune pretty much all the time IME

I've been using chaincatchers,Ngear Jumpstop and Dog Fang,I prefer Ngear as it stops the chain from derailing whereas the DF only catches it when it has though with a deft bit of STI-ing the chain can be got back on IME,with road and MTB STI's and with Kelly's for years,it makes perfect sense to me not to have the chain derail on the inside when dropping down to the small ring and getting stuck between the spider and frame in that place that induces the Anglo Saxon in my vocabulary :?

EDITED for typhoids
Last edited by reohn2 on 6 Oct 2017, 2:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Psamathe
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote:I find it ... and it's a faff keeping them indexed correctly......

For the first couple of years after getting my new bike, the STIs were as you describe. Take the bike to one of several very highly regarded bike shops and they'd either "best I can get it" or it would be the nightmare within 30 mins on the way home. To change gear between 0 and 3 clicks and then maybe one back down again; sometimes just riding along and it would change. I liked the positioning but they never seemed to align (I only got LBSs to adjust them - I did not consider I had enough experience).

Then after parts swap bingo of everything except the STIs, I "bit the bullet" and got some 105 STIs to replace the Tiagra originals. Perfect on leaving LBS (that installed it all) and only now 16 months later maybe they might need minor tweaking.

Ian
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote:
TrevA wrote:Another advantage of STIs is that you can brake and change gear at the same time. Sometimes useful if you come upon an unexpected gradient or traffic lights change as you get to them.

I don't agree - if I'm braking, I'm probably not pedalling, so it won't shift until I stop braking, at which point I can use a gear lever. ...

I wonder if this depends on when you switch to STIs. (Other than a few hundred miles "testing" cycling), when I returned to cycling after many years the bike I purchased had STIs so I got used to them from day 1. And I brake and change gear at the same time (sometimes). If the bike I had purchased had e.g. bar end shifters then I expect my cycling style would not be to brake and shift at the same time so I'd probably not brake and shift at the same time.

Thinking about my cycling I often brake and shift at the same time when approaching a junction and slowing; I'll keep pedalling but pedalling slower than the bike is freewheeling. I do this without really thinking (do say if it's "bad practice" as I am self-taught).

Ian
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by Psamathe »

mjr wrote:
mercalia wrote:Maybe its just that my RSX sti are the pinnicle of STI and everthing that followed was downhill :wink:

I looked them up. There seem to be plenty of people still using them and they look more metal and less plastic than most models I've tried... you may not be joking as much as you thought ;)

When I switched from Tiagra STI to 105 STI the feel of the 105 was of a much better build, much more "metallic" and less "plasticky" build - but that is feel using them (some expert will probably point out that 105s have more plastic components than metal!). Build quality from the feel using them was dramatically better with 105s that Tiagra's

(Talking about the old Tiagras, with the window/position pointer thing from 4 years ago).

Ian
Brucey
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by Brucey »

folk are saying things like 'I don't recognise that problem' because it has either not happened to them (yet) or they just have not thought about it hard enough. I've often seen people in the most frightful pickle because of STIs yet they are the first things that some folk seem to want on their bikes.

FWIW I have STIs on several machines but I don't get such good value out them (my preferred riding position is not to be on the hoods all the time) and I don't consider them the virtual necessity that some do.

STIs are doubly expensive because you buy them in the first place, and when you have the slightest prang it is likely that the STI will be damaged and will need to be replaced. By contrast on most other shifting setups the brake lever is the only thing to be easily damaged and that is both more robust to start with and very cheap to replace.

BTW SIS is any sort of shimano indexing (so you can have SIS compatible parts of all kinds, not just shifters, and all shimano indexed shifters are SIS I suppose) and STI is (strictly speaking) any shimano index shifter integrated with the brake lever, including those on flat bars. For sake of clarity I go with the flow and (unlike shimano) I usually don't use the STI name in connection with flat bars unless in the phrase 'flat bar STI' .

Flat bar shifters may be 'rapidfire' variety which allow brisk shifting in one direction when the mech moves under its spring tension since the shifter releases a ratchet quickly. The shift action of dropped bar STIs is comparable. Only friction shifters and most thumbshifters don't 'throw' the chain quickly in one direction under the mech's spring pressure.

I've ridden very few bikes where I was able to ride it without being able to cause the chain to scrape on the front mech some of the time and very many where I have had to trim the front mech in nearly every gear to prevent it. If you are not that strong, don't use large chainrings, or perhaps you have framesets that are built of pig iron, maybe you don't get front mech scraping. Indexed front shifting is not at all helpful in avoiding or correcting this issue.

cheers
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mercalia
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by mercalia »

Brucey wrote:I've ridden very few bikes where I was able to ride it without being able to cause the chain to scrape on the front mech some of the time and very many where I have had to trim the front mech in nearly every gear to prevent it. If you are not that strong, don't use large chainrings, or perhaps you have framesets that are built of pig iron, maybe you don't get front mech scraping. Indexed front shifting is not at all helpful in avoiding or correcting this issue.

I rarely ride on the hoods, mainly some where near the bend or beyond or the flats - I think you are exagerating matters or maybe I just have big hands with long fingers.
well no scrape for me. no trimming either as RSX with 46/36/26 dont have it so couldnt if I wanted to. frameset is 631 Reynolds, guess I must be weaker than I thought :wink: except my fingerss as they get exercise from shifting the chain up the rings. Seems like I have a bike in a million :D I did buy a spare set of RSX sti ( in fact the whole drive chain set ) when I got the bike, havent had to use them since I got the bike in 1999
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meic
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by meic »

and when you have the slightest prang it is likely that the STI will be damaged and will need to be replaced.

I havent come across that yet either for myself or the people I ride with.
Certainly in the tiny enough probability to not base any choices on.
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reohn2
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by reohn2 »

Brucey wrote:folk are saying things like 'I don't recognise that problem' because it has either not happened to them (yet) or they just have not thought about it hard enough. I've often seen people in the most frightful pickle because of STIs yet they are the first things that some folk seem to want on their bikes.

FWIW I have STIs on several machines but I don't get such good value out them (my preferred riding position is not to be on the hoods all the time) and I don't consider them the virtual necessity that some do.

STIs are doubly expensive because you buy them in the first place, and when you have the slightest prang it is likely that the STI will be damaged and will need to be replaced. By contrast on most other shifting setups the brake lever is the only thing to be easily damaged and that is both more robust to start with and very cheap to replace.

BTW SIS is any sort of shimano indexing (so you can have SIS compatible parts of all kinds, not just shifters, and all shimano indexed shifters are SIS I suppose) and STI is (strictly speaking) any shimano index shifter integrated with the brake lever, including those on flat bars. For sake of clarity I go with the flow and (unlike shimano) I usually don't use the STI name in connection with flat bars unless in the phrase 'flat bar STI' .

Flat bar shifters may be 'rapidfire' variety which allow brisk shifting in one direction when the mech moves under its spring tension since the shifter releases a ratchet quickly. The shift action of dropped bar STIs is comparable. Only friction shifters and most thumbshifters don't 'throw' the chain quickly in one direction under the mech's spring pressure.

I've ridden very few bikes where I was able to ride it without being able to cause the chain to scrape on the front mech some of the time and very many where I have had to trim the front mech in nearly every gear to prevent it. If you are not that strong, don't use large chainrings, or perhaps you have framesets that are built of pig iron, maybe you don't get front mech scraping. Indexed front shifting is not at all helpful in avoiding or correcting this issue.

cheers

I repect your views on this issue most of which I share TBH, but don't think you're going to convince most people who've been riding STI's for years to change to anything else when they find them so convenient and are settled with them,despite their cost and vulnerability they see it as a price worth paying.
The OP's point was one of how STI's have helped his cycling in the inevitable march of time,and his convenience and pleasure cannot be measured as a result I fully understand his position.
STI's were a revelation to me when I first used them 20 odd years ago,being able to change gear so conveniently noticed mostly when tired I'd grind out a climb rather than reach down for the DT lever,I'd tried b/ends and didn't like them at all.
It was years later I found Kelly's and realised their worth but the convenience and natural way they so easily worked impressed me immensely at the time.
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TrevA
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by TrevA »

I have a few friends who are on their 70s and are changing to Di2 because of arthritis in their fingers.
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reohn2
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by reohn2 »

TrevA wrote:I have a few friends who are on their 70s and are changing to Di2 because of arthritis in their fingers.

I can fully understand their reasons for that and is one reservation I have for electronic shifting.
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Annoying Twit
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by Annoying Twit »

I think STIs are great and couldn't really imagine going to something different. While they are expensive, cycling in general is cheap for the value you get out of it. My STIs came with my bike, and the bike as a whole was not expensive. However, I'm very aware if I crash it the bill for replacements could be very expensive. In the other thread I asked why STIs were so much more expensive than calliper brakes or rear derailleurs from the same groupset. I'm not sure why.

I do think they are overpriced, and that would be a reason for some to refuse to use them out of principle. But, I do believe that overall cycling with STI festooned bikes is still good value for money.

Given that STI changers have been around since the 90s, I would have expected the original patents to have expired. However, alternatives to Shimano STIs appear to not use the brake lever to shift, which would normally be an indication of that being patented and hence other manufacturers having to create a different method to achieve the same aim to work around that patent. E.g. SRAM's double tap and Microshift using two paddles and not the brake lever (or do I have that right?) That would look to me to be working around patents.

I presume that modern STIs have new technology that is covered by new, and still in force, patents. However, what would those patents be? The cable connection from an STI to the rear derailleur is too simple. Why can't exact clones of the original STI levers not be made cheaply?

The point about arthritis and STIs and even electric changing is interesting. Everyone is going to keep on getting older, and if these fancy gizmos help people stay on bikes longer, then that's a benefit.
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bigjim
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by bigjim »

I like STIs but I also have no problem riding with DTs or Barends. I don't find STIs expensive if you are happy enough with Sora or Tiagra. They are available used for between £30 to £50 a set. It's only as you get higher up the chain that things start to become expensive and I personally can't see the advantage. Non of my Tiagra or Sora have caused me problems. I find the used stuff are often not that used, as it is often someone upgrading to what they think is better. I was out yesterday on a bike using cheap Claris STIs. They were fine and I did not find any problems with them.
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by Annoying Twit »

I have Claris. I just had a look and the 2400 brifters are now available much cheaper than they were when I last looked. (Which was much closer to when the 2400s were released). £67 or £65 is much more reasonable. A separate set of cheap brake levers plus normal price downshifters would be not too much cheaper.

When I looked before they were all about £100 on ebay, and some still are. £127 on Wiggle, marked down from £149. Quite a few people are still selling at £100 and above on ebay, but there are a number of sellers at the £65-7-ish price point. This is for a pair.

I've put a lowball bid on some second hand 2400 shifters and a rear derailleur. I don't expect to win at the price I bid, but if I don't no harm done. And if I do, into the parts box they go and I will be much less concerned about expensive replacements.
reohn2
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Re: Benefit of STI

Post by reohn2 »

I agree abou the lower end stuff lasting and being good value,the plus is that they're 9sp too :D .The other really useful thing with STI's is the ability to juussttt overshift slightly when changing to a lower gear on the rear with a worn chain with a lot of side slop in it :wink:
The only 9sp d/t levers available now are Dura Ace and are £60+ a pop,I've just paid £33 for a s/hand pair off Ebay :?

I was sold on Kelly's some years back when rough stuffing due to being concerned about damage to STI's as they sit inboard of the brake levers,the Tektro RL340 drop bar brake cost about £15 a pair so not much lost if I trash them.I prefer Kelly's because they're no slower than STI's and can be used from any hand position,tops,ramps,hoods or drops :)

To each his own but I'd say STI's are more of an asset to cycling than a hindrance.
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