Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

[ThePinkOne]

I am tending towards much less meat, but organic and ditto for mik/eggs/cheese. Plus carefully sourced veg and stuff- growing what I can on an allotment has opened my eyes to how good local grow (heritage varitey) veg can taste.

The problem I have with some vegan-diet promoters is a lack of understanding of "animal product substitutes" come from. Almond milk for example.

Thinking about "milk" made from almonds that come from USA. Not only is the growing of such trees in a semi-arid area using up Fossil water from aquifers and taking water that could be better used for staple crops such as local heritage varieties of beans, but also you need bees to pollinate the vast orchards. Natural bees are no-where near enough, so hundreds of hives of bees are bred and trucked around to provide pollination services. These bees then go on to other crops. The mortailty rate of these bees is high (ref "A world without bees" by Brian McCallum), and they are just as much "farmed livestock" as cows etc are. So, how is it that a vegan who won't eat honey will nevertheless use almond milk?

Similarly, industrial tomato growing really needs bumblebees as bizz pollinators, so the big tomato growers (who grow under glass) similarly use farmed bumble bee colonies.

And what about palm oil? Some green NGOs now reckon that in practice, there is "no such thing as sustainable palm oil."

In such cases, I suggest the environmentally/ecologically responsible thing is "use less." Porrage is fine without milk and tomatoes in season (pollinated by natural bumblebees, if necessary enticed into the polytunnel by providing a bee-feast of borage, marigolds etc just outside) are so much better. They can also be dried for use over the winter. Palm oil can be replaced with other oils- and we can use much less. ALso we should not be growing food crops to make car fuel!

Whilst there are vegan diets which don't use such substitutes, I would like to see far more attention to these issues- if directly killing other creatures for food is not right, then surely killing them indirectly isn't OK either?

I would prefer to see a "minimal impact" approach; I think that much better reflects the big picture. I am extremely against factory farming- but also would challenge some modern crop farming systems which rely on "mining" resources such as soil and fossil water; "meat bad veg good" is a bit simpistic I think. I also recommend some good reads to better understand the complexity of modern food supply chains: "This is the way the world ends" by Jeff Nisbet and "Seeds of Resistance" by Mark Schapiro. The Jeff Nisbet book in particular should be mandatory reading for any politician!

TPO

[londoncommuter0000]

Vegan here, not vocal about it really. Was born into a veggie family but decided 5/6 years ago when I was 25ish I didn't want to eat any animal products any more.

Edit: In the last 2 years my meat eating Wife and Son have both decided to become veggie, I'm not pushy about it at all so it was their choice. I hope they both decided to choose to eat a vegan diet at some point but that is also their choice.

Do you take anything to provide vitamin B12?

I take Holland & Barrett vegan B12 1000 µg. B12 is no longer synthesised by animals, since it requires a source of cobalt. We have overfarmed to the extent that the soil is virtually completely devoid of cobalt. Any B12 you get from beef etc now, has been injected into the animals by the farmer.

[reohn2]

Interesting:- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-englan ... -and-vegan

[Goosey]

Marmite is rich in vitamin B12, why would a vegan not eat it?

[londoncommuter0000]

Marmite is rich in vitamin B12, why would a vegan not eat it?

Because it's disgusting?

[pwa]

Marmite is rich in vitamin B12, why would a vegan not eat it?

Because it's disgusting?

Agreed. But you can use it as an ingredient in cooked food.

[londoncommuter0000]

Marmite is rich in vitamin B12, why would a vegan not eat it?

Because it's disgusting?

Agreed. But you can use it as an ingredient in cooked food.

My wife loves the stuff. I cannot even see a jar of it without gagging.

Then again, I love Dijon mustard, and she seems to have a reaction to the presence of mustard, as she starts to choke.

If I ever want to bump her off, I know how.

[pwa]

Because it's disgusting?

Agreed. But you can use it as an ingredient in cooked food.

My wife loves the stuff. I cannot even see a jar of it without gagging.

Then again, I love Dijon mustard, and she seems to have a reaction to the presence of mustard, as she starts to choke.

If I ever want to bump her off, I know how.

My Dad, when he was still alive, used to tell people he couldn't stand garlic and never ate it. Then my Mum, who prepared his food, would whisper to them that she put it in his food all the time but didn't tell him.

[londoncommuter0000]

Agreed. But you can use it as an ingredient in cooked food.

My wife loves the stuff. I cannot even see a jar of it without gagging.

Then again, I love Dijon mustard, and she seems to have a reaction to the presence of mustard, as she starts to choke.

If I ever want to bump her off, I know how.

My Dad, when he was still alive, used to tell people he couldn't stand garlic and never ate it. Then my Mum, who prepared his food, would whisper to them that she put it in his food all the time but didn't tell him.

Hah! She'd better not try. Then again, she can't cook for toffee. I do that stuff for both of us, but when it comes to mustard, she has the nose of a bloodhound.

[pwa]

I don't like Marmite when I can taste it, but my Missus puts it in cooked dishes and I can't taste it then. I don't use it in cooking myself, though.

[Cyril Haearn]

Went to a talk about institutional food in the 16th century
Fish at nearly every meal, lots of cabbage*, no potatoes
*the expert wondered how the people smelled

[foxyrider]

Went to a talk about institutional food in the 16th century
Fish at nearly every meal, lots of cabbage*, no potatoes
*the expert wondered how the people smelled

With their noses?

[Cyril Haearn]

Went to a talk about institutional food in the 16th century
Fish at nearly every meal, lots of cabbage*, no potatoes
*the expert wondered how the people smelled

With their noses?

My dog has no nose
Actually if one eats a lot of cabbage one does not smell, the digestion adapts
I eat a lot of porridge, I am fragrant

[londoncommuter0000]

Went to a talk about institutional food in the 16th century

Blimey, I thought I was old!

[Cyril Haearn]

Went to a talk about institutional food in the 16th century

Blimey, I thought I was old!

Yes, it was the week after Leonardo lectured, he explained in Welsh how he invented the bicycle

The old documents were a bit unclear, deliveries of fish and oxen were listed but not the quantities
One ox, one small fish, a hundred big fishes? In any case the oxen were fattened after so the delivery was likely a small beast