Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

[reohn2]

Can you even be a vegan in the modern world?

I thought vegan meant not meat, meat products or byproducts. I believe almost everything in this modern world is made of it with products if animals. I bet if someone claiming vegan status looked into everything they consumed (food and material items) then I bet there's animals involved.

Sorry but I'm a bit pedantic about that. And don't get me onto the topic of vegetarians who ready fish or chicken you're a piscatorian or a pescatorian I believe the term is. Definitely not a vegetarian.

Feel better. But that off by chest!

I tend to agree though don't blame people claiming to be vegan as they're trying a much as they can to lead that livestyle,so claiming veganism is honourable IMO.
I was vegetarian for 20 odd years but have begun to eat fish and eggs over the last four or five years.
I'm sure your chest feels better for getting that of it

[reohn2]

On not the soup.... http://www.timfoxall.com/oh-no-not-the-soup.html

Looks like a customised spurtle (wooden implement for stirring porridge)

In Wales we go one better, have a look at our love spoons, can Scotland do anything like that?

Yep,seen those lurv spoons,what do you do with them

[reohn2]

....... It is increasingly obvious that we cannot feed everyone if we all continue to eat meat at current western rates.

Yep,it isnt sustainable the energy in for energy out doesn't stack up for a start,infact the meat diet is bonkers on that premise alone.
But try telling meat eaters that and that they can enjoy a meat free diet and its a brick wall,their answer usually is "well I like meat and can't manage without it",then there's the "where will I get my protein from"
Food is an additives can of worms......

[PDQ Mobile]

My diet is mostly veg but i have tended to eat 'hunted' meat....ie meat from animals that have had a fairly natural wild life. The reason for this is that the animals should have better welfare than farmed animals, that they wont be so full of steroids, growth hormones, etc, and that game is so much harder to get that it limits the amount i eat anyway.

Alas is doesnt really work. Loads of game animals are now farmed instead, even stuff like pheasents are artificially fed, and, of course, you often have no idea how fish are caught (or what they have been swimming in).

So now i am mostly vege and slowly removing dairy.

Reasons....health (dodgy kidneys), animal welfare and environmentalism.

There is still much decent kind livestock production in the UK.

In the hill land of Wales, for example, a good deal of beef production is pretty natural with calves running with the cows/herd for a good long while on pretty natural "unimproved" pasture.
Quite happy lives for the most part, actually.
Indeed a great deal of the hill land of Britain is suitable for little else other than stock rearing.
At is most simple and basic it's fairly sustainable and organic agriculture.
Many of our last flower meadows are a product of that system.

Much of that hill land would revert to scrub and woodland without the stock rearing or hay/silage making.

Not that I am against more woodland but to loose some of the better pasture land, and the amazing hedgerows or walls that define it, would be a shame. IMHO.
It is a sustainable and diverse landscape created by generations of hardworking families.

Most (but not all!) of that free living hill stock is well cared for with few parasites and diseases.
Though TB is a problem in some areas esp. in dairy.

Many wild animals suffer greatly from parasites. Ticks, lice and intestinal worms.
So often less than comfortable lives and with all the attendant fear and uncertainty that goes with "being wild".

[Tangled Metal]

I tend to agree though don't blame people claiming to be vegan as they're trying a much as they can to lead that livestyle,so claiming veganism is honourable IMO.
I was vegetarian for 20 odd years but have begun to eat fish and eggs over the last four or five years.
I'm sure your chest feels better for getting that of it

Oh yes! I don't mind people trying but that is all they're doing. They are achieving a lot towards being a vegan but I believe it's an impossible task. In some ways it needs a new name IMHO. Reduced animal exploitation diet (READ). I don't have an idea what but perhaps give it a new name and use the acronym instead. It's a reduced animal product diet.

[Tangled Metal]

One thing I will say, you cannot wear any leather products and be a vegan. If anyone does then they might as well eat the beef that the leather covered. That aspect of hypocrisy annoys me. I've met ppl spouting in about being a vegan because they don't agree with exploiting animals while wearing thigh high leather boots.

[reohn2]

I tend to agree though don't blame people claiming to be vegan as they're trying a much as they can to lead that livestyle,so claiming veganism is honourable IMO.
I was vegetarian for 20 odd years but have begun to eat fish and eggs over the last four or five years.
I'm sure your chest feels better for getting that of it

Oh yes! I don't mind people trying but that is all they're doing. They are achieving a lot towards being a vegan but I believe it's an impossible task. In some ways it needs a new name IMHO. Reduced animal exploitation diet (READ). I don't have an idea what but perhaps give it a new name and use the acronym instead. It's a reduced animal product diet.

I'll think positive,settle for veganism and chapeau for those doing their utmost toward that end,even if the modern world trips them up occassionally

[reohn2]

One thing I will say, you cannot wear any leather products and be a vegan. If anyone does then they might as well eat the beef that the leather covered. That aspect of hypocrisy annoys me. I've met ppl spouting in about being a vegan because they don't agree with exploiting animals while wearing thigh high leather boots.

It all depends who's wearing the boots

[LollyKat]

I'm vegetarian including milk and eggs but for reasons of taste rather than principle. I was a terrible fussy child* because I absolutely hated meat. Growing up I had to learn to tolerate it but once I was living independently I bought it less and less. Some very good vegetarian cookbooks came out and I explored their recipes enthusiastically, and felt much better for it. My husband also preferred them but we never made a conscious decision to become "vegetarians". For the first couple of years we didn't say anything to friends if we were invited out to a meal, as it seemed rude to expect them to make special provision for us, but after a while we found meat so indigestible that we had to confess. We can tolerate fish and very occasionally eat it if there really is no alternative, but we never buy it.

We brought our children up veggie but I always told them I didn't mind if they ate meat so long as I didn't have to cook it. Our son now eats fish but otherwise has remained veggie; our daughter is now a carnivore but at least she still eats lots of fruit and veg.

*My brother loved meat and hated veg (still does) - my poor mother!

[Cyril Haearn]

I see omnivore is a choice, that would seem to rule out carnivore as a possible choice, because surely no human being would eat nothing but flesh of other animals on a permanent long term basis. Apparently the traditional Inuit diet is the closest any humans get to a pure carnivore diet. Here is an extract from a description of their diet.

What Would Happen If I Ate Nothing But Meat?
Good ol' meat and potatoes. Without the potatoes.

You might get scurvy, like a pirate. Cooked meat contains very little vitamin C, notes Donald Beitz, a nutritional biochemist at Iowa State University. Without the vitamin, scurvy would bring on rashes and gum disease, not to mention very bad breath. Moreover, meat lacks fiber, so you'd probably be constipated. All in all, you wouldn't be healthy or comfortable.

That said, some groups of people have survived—even thrived—on an animal-only diet. Research suggests that traditionally the Inuit ate any number of meats, including seal, whale, caribou and fish. But they rarely, if ever, ate plant fiber. The key to their success, says Harriet Kuhnlein, the founding director of the Centre for Indigenous Peoples' Nutrition and Environment at McGill University in Montreal, was eating every part of the animal, "and you have to eat some of it raw." Raw meat contains vitamin C (which is lost when cooked), and the skin, hooves and bones contain fiber. For greens, Kuhnlein adds, traditional Inuit "ate the stomach contents of caribou and deer."

The Inuit surely have very different intestinal bacteria, they might not be able to digest salad, they might find it disgusting
There are many arguments about whether humans evolved as carnivores, I guess the Inuit did but maybe jungle-dwellers did not, they could just pick breadfruit (whatever they are) off the trees
*It's the digestion, stupid!*

[whoof]

It turns out that I'm probably a flexitarian but had never even heard of the term and had to google it. It's a better description of my eating than omnivore as Mrs Whoof is a vegetarian and we eat the same meals I therefore generally only eat meat when we eat out.

[Tangled Metal]

I guess my view is coloured by meeting a few vegan / animal rights campaigner types with a holier than thou attitude towards those with different views.

I eat meat I also eat vegetarian meals. I would say that my diet is a third land reared meat based, third vegetarian and a third fish based. We buy meat from a reputable source with high standards of animal welfare. However the real reason for going there is quality. It costs more but you get what you pay for with meat.

Whatever I eat is my choice just like it's the choice of everyone else. However I've only met one vegan couple who didn't have a chip on their shoulder about those who eat meat. That couple was stoned most of the time so that could be a factor. They weren't hypocrites in that they said that they get to be vegan where possible. Also their life is about minimising impact on the planet. They're into local, environmental activism of the type that creates community vegetable growing facilities not sticking fake parking tickets on car windscreens. They still took part in modern student life (we were students at Leeds). I respected them (and got stoned in ten seconds of talking to them through their tent door).

I guess my point is hypocrisy is annoying where ever it is.

[Vorpal]

One thing I will say, you cannot wear any leather products and be a vegan. If anyone does then they might as well eat the beef that the leather covered. That aspect of hypocrisy annoys me. I've met ppl spouting in about being a vegan because they don't agree with exploiting animals while wearing thigh high leather boots.

I generally figure that it's good to use the leather. I may not want to eat meat, but so many animals are killed for meat that we need to use as much as possible of the other bits. Only about 50 - 75% of beef cattle actually become beef, depending on fat, muscling, age, etc. The rest can be used in dog & cat food, byproducts for processed foods and cooking, fuel, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, and, of course, leather.

Leather is a good material for many purposes.

When I became vegetarian, it was largely because of the environmental issues.

[Annoying Twit]

I guess my view is coloured by meeting a few vegan / animal rights campaigner types with a holier than thou attitude towards those with different views.

I eat meat I also eat vegetarian meals. I would say that my diet is a third land reared meat based, third vegetarian and a third fish based. We buy meat from a reputable source with high standards of animal welfare. However the real reason for going there is quality. It costs more but you get what you pay for with meat.

Whatever I eat is my choice just like it's the choice of everyone else. However I've only met one vegan couple who didn't have a chip on their shoulder about those who eat meat. That couple was stoned most of the time so that could be a factor. They weren't hypocrites in that they said that they get to be vegan where possible. Also their life is about minimising impact on the planet. They're into local, environmental activism of the type that creates community vegetable growing facilities not sticking fake parking tickets on car windscreens. They still took part in modern student life (we were students at Leeds). I respected them (and got stoned in ten seconds of talking to them through their tent door).

I guess my point is hypocrisy is annoying where ever it is.

I know a lot of vegan people and have met many more over decades.

Given that experience, I don't accept your characterisation of the typical vegan. Typically, we don't go around with any sort of chip on our shoulder, and nor do we go around telling everyone that we're vegan. It's frequently been the case that I've known someone for a long time and suddenly meet them in a specialist shop or similar and am surprised to find that they are also vegan. I see these people interacting at work and socially, and don't see anything like what you characterise. I've been to plenty of vegan get togethers with large numbers of vegans. It is very rare that I will meet someone who is aggressive or 'has a chip on their shoulder'. I will find equal numbers of more militant people at meetings and forums of, say, cyclists, runners, musicians, etc. It's human nature; it's not because of one diet and lifestyle choice.

If you are experiencing these problems with vegans, then it makes me wonder if it's actually you that is the problem. It's similar to the type of driver who drives up behind cyclists and immediately begins honking their horn and revving their engine, then deliberately cuts the cyclist off when they finally squeeze past in a dangerous location. Then this driver will go around telling people how rude cyclists are because cyclists keep on swearing at the driver.

We've had a thread here (and another one where veganism is mentioned) which has basically been a reasonable discussion until you jump in with your attitude. I see nothing that would have provoked you, unless you are provoked by vegans simply existing. Which again is something that I have experienced in my life. Hence, I personally interpret your post above as being like the engine revving and horn honking of a driver who has a problem with cyclists.

In short, if you are finding that vegans react to you the way that they do, I think it's likely that unless you've been extremely unlucky with the vegans that you've met, that you that is at least a large proportion of the problem.

[Si]

Yep, that's what I find. Many vegans are a lot like many cyclists - they'd like if everyone did what they do but they don't go out of their way to confront others, and when confrontation does take place it's often because the other party has provoked it...and when provoked, like many cyclists, they can give as well as they get.

I have met one or too 'hard core' vegans who have condemned anyone who doesn't follow their exact interpretation of veganism, in their books you can't be part vegan or almost vegan or slowly becoming vegan (mmm, met a few cyclists like this too: you can't be a real cyclist if you also drive a car). I do wish that I had the willpower to be a full-on vegan, but until then I'm making the small changes that I can...and I think that it is better to replace some animal products than to try it full on, find it's too much and go 100% back to carnivore (just like trying to get people to replace < 3mile car journeys with bike journeys is going to be easier than trying to get someone to replace all car journeys, even if that is what we'd want in the end).