Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

What diet do you eat?

Poll ended at 3 Jan 2018, 5:55pm

Omnivore
15
36%
Carnivore
3
7%
Flexetarier
2
5%
Vegetarian with milk, eggs, fish
9
21%
Vegetarian with milk, eggs
9
21%
Vegan
2
5%
Stone-Age
1
2%
Other
1
2%
 
Total votes: 42

Jon Lucas
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby Jon Lucas » 22 Dec 2017, 10:12am

My experience too. The vast majority of people who try to follow vegan diets don't go round advertising the fact to others, and it is likely most people will know some without actually knowing they have that diet.

The analogy with cyclists is correct. There are a lot of patronising attitudes made to both. I get fed up with hearing from people when they say things like "Oh aren't you good cycling over here" when all you've done is cycle a couple of miles to see them. It is said in a way that emphasises that they would never actually contemplate doing anything like that themselves and that they are the 'normal' people and you are not. If anyone actually 'comes out' as a vegan, they suffer the same.

pwa
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby pwa » 23 Dec 2017, 12:46pm

Tangled Metal wrote:One thing I will say, you cannot wear any leather products and be a vegan. If anyone does then they might as well eat the beef that the leather covered. That aspect of hypocrisy annoys me. I've met ppl spouting in about being a vegan because they don't agree with exploiting animals while wearing thigh high leather boots.


I know what you mean, but I also think terms like "veggie" and "vegan" can be used by individuals to mean whatever they want them to mean. I know what I mean by "vegetarian", and for me it excludes all flesh, even fish. If someone else wants to call themselves "vegetarian" but still eats fish, that's their business. I was vegan for about a year (mid 1980s) and continued to wear leather shoes because I already had them. And for some people the "vegan" bit may just mean "vegan diet". It's their business why they would choose to adopt the diet without dropping leather. People don't normally fit exactly into the labelled boxes we give them. Why would we expect complex human beings to behave exactly the same just because they adopt a "vegan" diet and call themselves "vegan"? Even within that narrow band of thought there will be shades of opinion on the details.

brynpoeth
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby brynpoeth » 23 Dec 2017, 1:06pm

Maybe the question for cyclists would be: do you use a leather saddle?
I do, bought it secondhand 35 years ago, mind
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mattsccm
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby mattsccm » 23 Dec 2017, 8:40pm

Genuine question, never really answered. To those who don't eat meat for "humanitarian" or environmental reasons. Is there any objections to natural or accidentally dead animals? Seems to me that to waste it is not morally defensible. Let's think road kill deer maybe? Perfectly good to eat.

Annoying Twit
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby Annoying Twit » 23 Dec 2017, 11:22pm

mattsccm wrote:Genuine question, never really answered. To those who don't eat meat for "humanitarian" or environmental reasons. Is there any objections to natural or accidentally dead animals? Seems to me that to waste it is not morally defensible. Let's think road kill deer maybe? Perfectly good to eat.


There are a lot of complicated questions that could be asked. E.g. if meat is not eaten for humanitarian reasons, then is it more moral to eat a venus flytrap plant rather than a sponge given their similarly simple 'nervous systems'? The same could apply to road-kill, etc.

Fundamentally, veganism will be some sort of an approximation to an ideal (e.g. humanitarian) diet. Because to spend ages agonising over every single thing that can be eaten trying to work out the optimum possible border between what I will eat and what I will not eat is too complicated. So, veganism says that if it's from kingdom animalia, don't eat it. If it isn't from kingdom animalia (and of course if it's edible and palatable), then do eat it. So, sponges aren't eaten and venus flytraps could be.

Having relatively simple diets that large numbers of people adopt makes other things easier. E.g. there are now enough vegans around so that large numbers of products are labelled 'suitable for vegans' which makes things a lot easier. If every single person who was likely to be vegan was making different decisions about how to eat, then there wouldn't be large identifiable groups, and hence commercial enterprises wouldn't be able to supply us with products suitably formulated and labelled. So, not eating road-kill is a group decision more than an individual one. But, we need groups so that society works efficiently, including accommodating the minority of vegans. If that groupthink includes a small amount of illogic, then that's the price that we pay for the (to me) considerable benefits.

Going back to the road-kill, then I can't see a humanitarian reason for not eating meat from already dead animals. But, if large numbers of people decided that road-kill was OK but no other meat was, then that would create a market for road-kill. What would happen then? Would we get people driving around in vans deliberately looking for and running over animals as they would be saleable? Would we have farmers releasing livestock onto the road to be run over so that they become roadkill. Would we get farmed animals passed off as road-kill? (remember the horse meat scandal). Would we get pressure groups pressuring the government to have very 'loose' definitions of official road-kill, in the same way that happened with 'free range products'? Going back to simplicity, it's much easier to just not eat any meat at all so that there's a suitable safety margin between me and stuff that I don't want to eat.

Finally, people eat stuff that they are used to. And often find stuff that they are not used to gross. E.g. a majority of the British public eats pork, but would be grossed out by eating dog. It took me a while to get used to eating seaweed. I haven't eaten meat for decades, and personally find the idea of me eating even pristine looking meat from the supermarket gross. I'm not saying that everyone should, but I do. The thought of eating a random dead animal found beside the edge of the road, even if it's just been killed and a skilled butcher is preparing it, is even more gross. So, I wouldn't want to. I'd rather eat my vegetable peelings made into a mash to prevent 'waste' that way. That may not be 100% logical, but it's the way my brain is currently working.

Eton Rifle
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby Eton Rifle » 24 Dec 2017, 8:41am

mattsccm wrote:Genuine question, never really answered. To those who don't eat meat for "humanitarian" or environmental reasons. Is there any objections to natural or accidentally dead animals? Seems to me that to waste it is not morally defensible. Let's think road kill deer maybe? Perfectly good to eat.


Same thing applies to e.g. oysters. Bi-valves have no central nervous system and, therefore, don't feel pain or fear. They are also easy to farm with negligible environmental impact, so why don't vegans and vegetarians eat them?

pwa
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby pwa » 24 Dec 2017, 9:24am

Eton Rifle wrote:
mattsccm wrote:Genuine question, never really answered. To those who don't eat meat for "humanitarian" or environmental reasons. Is there any objections to natural or accidentally dead animals? Seems to me that to waste it is not morally defensible. Let's think road kill deer maybe? Perfectly good to eat.


Same thing applies to e.g. oysters. Bi-valves have no central nervous system and, therefore, don't feel pain or fear. They are also easy to farm with negligible environmental impact, so why don't vegans and vegetarians eat them?


As a veggie (not vegan) I would say there is no definitive answer to either of those points. My own aim when I gave up meat thirty something years ago was to avoid harming sentient life unnecessarily. By sentient I meant anything with thought. Even basic thought. So not plants, definitely cattle, and some grey areas at the margins.

I don't need meat or fish to be healthy, so consuming them is a luxury not a necessity for me. If I lived in a hypothetical place where I would become ill without meat, I would reconsider. That was then, and at that point roadkill meat would still have been a theoretical goer. But all this time with no meat or fish has left me thinking of the consumption of flesh with revulsion. Like eating dog poo. For me, now, Yuck! is what comes to mind. My motivation for being veggie has changed.

When I first got together with my wife-to-be I was vegan and she was veggie. Being vegan is more coherent. I decided to be veggie as a compromise, so that we could cook together. Ethics are a guide for me, but ultimately not my master. In the end I tend to do what feels right in the circumstances I find myself in.

brynpoeth
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby brynpoeth » 24 Dec 2017, 9:29am

I think it would be good if much less meat were eaten
I think there should be much less motor traffic

I do not really want more people cycling
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Annoying Twit
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby Annoying Twit » 24 Dec 2017, 10:34am

Eton Rifle wrote:Same thing applies to e.g. oysters. Bi-valves have no central nervous system and, therefore, don't feel pain or fear. They are also easy to farm with negligible environmental impact, so why don't vegans and vegetarians eat them?


I believe that my previous post has already answered this question. See the example of venus flytraps versus sponges.

Vorpal
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby Vorpal » 25 Dec 2017, 11:39am

mattsccm wrote:Genuine question, never really answered. To those who don't eat meat for "humanitarian" or environmental reasons. Is there any objections to natural or accidentally dead animals? Seems to me that to waste it is not morally defensible. Let's think road kill deer maybe? Perfectly good to eat.

I think mainly, people draw the line at different points. I have a cousin who is largely vegetarian, but he does occasionally eat road kill, or animals hunted by other people, but never farm raised meat.

When I became vegetarian, it was a combination of things that led me to do so. I became vegetarian for environmental reasons, but it was more the food distribution system (in the USA, where I lived at the time) than animals specifically. I joined a food cooperative and obtained all of my food from there, so I was limited by what was available, which did not inlcude meat. In fact, the only animal products were free range eggs, a small selection of organic, free range cheeses and some yogurts and similar sorts of products.

I also found that, being careful to get the vitamins and stuff I needed (B vitamins, protein, etc.), I was eating much better than previously. There weren't many meats that I liked and could afford, so my solution had been just to buy something like cheap mince and disguise in chilli or bolognese sauce once every couple of weeks or when I could afford it. That didn't really get me what I needed.

Joining the food cooperative, though I could work for some of my food, and also take home the stuff that wasn't fit for the shelves, like apples with bruises. That's how I fed myself through university. When I got a job and had a bit more money, I did less volunteering, and expanded my shopping to items that I couldn't afford when I was only working part-time and funding school, but I remained a member of the coopertive and still did the majority of my shopping there.

I no longer have access to such an arrangment, but I have been mostly vegetarian since. I have always occasionally eaten some shellfish, but I'm quite particular about them. I've eaten fressh mussels, for example, but only in restaurants get them fresh from a boat (e.g. on the Belgian coast). I find them a bit rich, and the couple of times I've tried ones from a supermarket or something, I haven't liked them.
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brynpoeth
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Dec 2017, 12:14pm

Thread drift
What I want for Christmas:

Biographies of
Mick F
Third crank and
Vorpal!
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brynpoeth
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Jan 2018, 9:15pm

ND reports: the number of vegetarians and vegans in Germany has doubled in the last ten years
To 4% :o

Meat consumption has hardly fallen, it is 59kg per head
About 5% of males really love dead animals and eat about 150kg of meat a year

Meat and milk provide 17% of energy in the diet but use 77% of the agricultural land

Going to see a film called *Cowspiracy* about this soon
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Rusty Rider
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby Rusty Rider » 21 Jan 2018, 5:45pm

I eat across the veg/meat/dairy world, as for why I don't know, but I do like trying new things, be it animal or veg .
My youngest son is a veggie, he's got me eating far more varied things that I'd never tried, one of my favourites is seaweed, I've had 4 or 5 types and they all taste different.
Meat wise I guess I eat about a lb a week total, with slightly more fish, and lots of veg. When it comes to dairy I use butter, milk eggs and cheese but not as much as I used to as I've found getting older means you need less, but then I also have oat milk, almond milk (not the roasted one). I can't stand soya though it makes me feel sick. The only other thing I have is 2 glasses of wine with my dinner, but thats accompanied with a pint of water in a seperate glass.

Forgot the pasta, we eat that 2 or 3 times a week.
Peter

windmiller
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby windmiller » 18 Feb 2018, 6:56pm

I believe that one day in the not too distant future that it will be scientifically proven that plant life is sentient. The cabbage murderers and carrot beheaders will implode with a mighty "pop". Naturally the genuine vegans will starve to death while seeking absolution from their self righteous ignorance.
Then the rest of us can resume our wicked lives eating sausage, bacon and eggs Nirvana.

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Ray
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Re: Vege, Vegan or Carnivore

Postby Ray » 18 Feb 2018, 8:44pm

My considerations in choosing not to eat meat are environmental, dietary, and issues of animal welfare. I have to say that some of my concerns might well disappear if we were ever to see readily available sources of foodstuffs derived from insects, which are sometimes suggested as a solution to the problems of feeding the world.

If this were to happen, might some vegetarians feel that their principles would allow them to broaden their choice of ingredients?

Is an insectivore a carnivore? Locust-burgers, anyone?
Ray
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertrand Russell