Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Vorpal
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Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby Vorpal » 3 Jul 2018, 3:20pm

The Carbohydrate-Insulin Model of Obesity: Beyond “Calories In, Calories Out”

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamain ... le/2686146

Diets of varying composition, apart from calorie content, have varying effects on hormones, metabolic pathways, gene expression, and the gut microbiome in ways that could potentially influence fat storage. By asserting that all calories are alike to the body, the conventional model rules out the environmental exposure with the most plausible link to body weight control. What other factors could be responsible for such massive changes in obesity prevalence? The conventional model offers no compelling alternatives.

Beyond the type and amount of carbohydrate consumed, the CIM provides a conceptual framework for understanding how many dietary and nondietary exposures might alter hormones, metabolism, and adipocyte biology in ways that could predispose to obesity. Pending definitive studies, the principles of a low-glycemic load diet offer a practical alternative to the conventional focus on dietary fat and calorie restriction.
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reohn2
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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jul 2018, 4:24pm

Someone would need explain to me in layman's language what that quote means,it reads like scientific gobbledygook to me :?
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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby freeflow » 3 Jul 2018, 5:41pm

It means that our understanding of how you get fat is changing from just 'amount of what you eat' to ' influence and amount of what you eat'.

To put it another way it is the difference between treating obese people as just greedy or as individuals who have a difficult to control dependency linked to the consumption of certain types or quantities of food.

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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby Norman H » 3 Jul 2018, 6:14pm

Diets for diabetes, and other medical conditions, may not primarily be concerned with weight loss, and to a certain extent are a special case. Modern thinking on diets, particularly those for controlling type two diabetes and avoiding risk of heart disease, is moving away from a reliance on complex carbohydrates and a strategy of avoiding fats and sugar. Fats are no longer considered the great evil and in particular there is a recognition that, for all or some of the reasons given in the linked article, even unrefined carbohydrates can result in dangerous glucose spikes in many individuals.

When it comes to weight loss it remains true that from a thermodynamic point of view at least, a calorie is a calorie. It doesn't help that evolution has ensured that we have an efficient mechanism for storing excess carbohydrate calories as fat. There is also some evidence here that we respond differently to different foodstuffs. Eating carbohydrates stimulates appetite in a way that fats and proteins don't. This makes perfect sense if we still suffered the same uncertainties in our food supply that our ancestors did, but with supermarket shelves and fast food outlets stuffed with a plentiful suplies of carbohydrates, results in the current obesity crisis.

Diets designed for weight loss based on calorie restriction will work in the short term but will continue to fail in the long term. The key to sustained weight loss requires a life style change which incorporates a diet that is sustainable over a lifetime. In other words a diet that is pleasant and easy to follow.

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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby Vorpal » 3 Jul 2018, 6:20pm

reohn2 wrote:Someone would need explain to me in layman's language what that quote means,it reads like scientific gobbledygook to me :?
Basically, it's not just a matter of burning more calories than you take in because what those calories consist of influence how your body uses it. And stuff with lots of simple sugars, like cakes are
-more likely to become fat than useful energy
-change the way your body produces insulin
-make you feel more hungry

So, eating a balanced diet that replaced foods with simple sugars with foods with complex carbohydrates, like brown bread or porridge, or eating a high fat, low carb diet will improve weight loss, and/or reduce your 'natural' body weight. The conclusions may also explain the gradual increase in weight of the population in developed countries.
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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby 531colin » 3 Jul 2018, 6:40pm

Food with a high glycaemic index (GI) gives a spike in blood sugar.....that's what high GI means.
This spike in blood sugar causes a spike in insulin, and high insulin causes sugar to be removed from the blood and converted to fat for storage.
Unfortunately, many people like the taste of sugar, and many people like the feeling of a "sugar rush".

All old news.

If you want to cycle for more than a couple of hours at the sort of level of energy expenditure you can keep up all day, then you don't need energy gels or special drinks, "ordinary food" works very well, provided you remember to eat before you are hungry, to give time for nutrients to be absorbed.

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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jul 2018, 8:08pm

The point I was clumsily trying to make was that the ordinary joe and joess on the street aren't into sciencespeak,but need simple pointers to what they should and shouldn't be eating.
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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby 531colin » 3 Jul 2018, 9:35pm

reohn2 wrote:The point I was clumsily trying to make was that the ordinary joe and joess on the street aren't into sciencespeak,but need simple pointers to what they should and shouldn't be eating.


What they shouldn't be doing is shovelling in huge quantities of sugary food and washing it down with buckets of sugary fizzy pop.
That particular drum has been banged good and hard for several years, but I see no fewer blimps waddling about the street.
I don't suppose bunging a bit of tax on sugary food/drink will help much, but it seems to be coming.....eg https://www.diabetes.co.uk/nutrition/2018-uk-sugar-tax.html

The thing is, somebody who is overweight and wants not to be has to be pretty well motivated. You don't just have to think it would be vaguely nice to be a bit thinner, you need a burning desire to do something that isn't compatible with your present weight.

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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jul 2018, 10:15pm

531colin wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The point I was clumsily trying to make was that the ordinary joe and joess on the street aren't into sciencespeak,but need simple pointers to what they should and shouldn't be eating.


What they shouldn't be doing is shovelling in huge quantities of sugary food and washing it down with buckets of sugary fizzy pop.
That particular drum has been banged good and hard for several years, but I see no fewer blimps waddling about the street.
I don't suppose bunging a bit of tax on sugary food/drink will help much, but it seems to be coming.....eg https://www.diabetes.co.uk/nutrition/2018-uk-sugar-tax.html

The thing is, somebody who is overweight and wants not to be has to be pretty well motivated. You don't just have to think it would be vaguely nice to be a bit thinner, you need a burning desire to do something that isn't compatible with your present weight.

Spot on.
What's needed is to start young and for parents to see what they're doing to themselves and their children.
I believe things are changing,but it's a slow process and government have been slow to act.
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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby 531colin » 4 Jul 2018, 6:39pm

What is "the government" to do?
Put a policeman in every outlet selling fizzy drinks and sweet stuff?
Give every fat person somebody to be with them 24/7 monitoring everything they put in their mouths?
My daughter lost a lot of weight with Weightwatchers, about 7 stone as I recall. She recorded on her phone EVERYTHING she put in her mouth.
Many people on Weightwatchers (and all the rest) don't lose much weight, because they lie to themselves about what they really eat.
Its no good me wanting my daughter to lose weight, she had to be ready, and want to do it for herself, and she did.
Its absolutely pointless "the government" wanting people to lose weight.....just listen to the protests of "Nanny state" from the tabloids.
Its part of the human condition that we are all in denial over our own death.....it just seems so far away, even for me at 71. If you are obese for 40 years, you may die 10 years early.....but you might get run over by a bus, or get cancer or kidney failure, so it doesn't really matter. As for "you will get diabetes, high blood pressure, etc....well, that's what I pay my stamp for.

The proposed "sugar tax" is a trifling amount, and its the manufacturers who are being targeted, not the consumers. the consumers will presumably get their fizzy drinks with reduced sugar, and artificial sweeteners to make up the sweetness, for the existing price.....and that won't please everybody.

Tobacco, alcohol, and petrol/diesel are all very highly taxed, and its the consumer who pays.
Its noticeably NOT working, people still smoke, drink, and drive for pitifully short journeys.....sometimes all at the same time.

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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby reohn2 » 4 Jul 2018, 8:08pm

The government at both local and national level,could do a lot more,such as not selling off playing fields,banning fizzy drinks machines from school and hospital premises,Jamie Oliver attempted to get healthy eating into schools but the Cameron government blanked his ideas.
Healthy eating information films and adverts such as like the anti smoking ads.
Stopping sweets being sold at supermarkets checkouts and banning the advertisement of sugar rich foods and drinks.
Jack up,by a lot,the price of sugary and other unhealthy foods and alcoholic drinks .
Offer deitary help for overweight people and many more other health inititiatives.
As for transport policy,the government's policy on that sorry state of affairs is loaded in favour of the car by an incredible amount with public transport being practically a laughing stock compared to most other densely populated European countries.Then there's the government's lip serviced non cycling non strategy non ideas and non funding :twisted:

Ultimately you're right people have to want to lose weight but they also need help achieving it,and the government appears to me to be doing sweet FA(none football related)about it.
YVMV.

EDIT,Just remembered.
I had to go to hospital this week for a scan and an x-ray.
Sat in the waiting room were two cake shop wobblers,the first thing they did when one of them had been seen was to walk over to the vending machines in the corner and buy a bottle of coke and a couple of bags of crisps each.
This in a HOSPITAL!!
There's something sadly wrong somewhere :?
Last edited by reohn2 on 4 Jul 2018, 8:22pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby NUKe » 4 Jul 2018, 8:09pm

531colin wrote: swee
Tobacco, alcohol, and petrol/diesel are all very highly taxed, and its the consumer who pays.
Its noticeably NOT working, people still smoke, drink, and drive for pitifully short journeys.....sometimes all at the same time.

Tobacco is the one where taxation has helped to make a difference. alcohol is cheap in supermarkets so this skews. Petrol on the other hand is cheap by comparison to say 10years
Ago.
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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby 531colin » 4 Jul 2018, 9:23pm

reohn2 wrote:..............
EDIT,Just remembered.
I had to go to hospital this week for a scan and an x-ray.
Sat in the waiting room were two cake shop wobblers,the first thing they did when one of them had been seen was to walk over to the vending machines in the corner and buy a bottle of coke and a couple of bags of crisps each.
This in a HOSPITAL!!
There's something sadly wrong somewhere :?


If you were working, and had cycled 5 miles to get to the hospital, and had 5 miles to cycle back to work, with the foreman running a stopwatch on how long you were away, a can of coke and a packet of crisps might have to be your lunch.
Nobody is actually forced to buy the stuff, its simply offered for sale. You or I might think the 2 fat people made a wrong choice, but its their choice to make.

We do live in a democracy (you may think a democracy of sorts, and I might agree)....but freedom of choice is a cornerstone.

If you ban vending machines in hospitals "for my own good", its just a short step to banning cycling on the roads....its for your own safety, you know....just like h*lm*t compulsion.

Slippery slope, I fear.

Re Jamie Oliver, my recollection is that the parents were handing burgers to the kids over the fence, but it might have been David Cameron in drag, I suppose.

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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby Vorpal » 4 Jul 2018, 9:41pm

531colin wrote:If you ban vending machines in hospitals "for my own good", its just a short step to banning cycling on the roads....its for your own safety, you know....just like h*lm*t compulsion.

They don't necessarily need banning, but what's the point really of having a vending machine in a hospital ward that offers cola and crisps and chocolate bars, but you can't get a piece of fruit? A vending machine in a hospital should have a selection of healthy foods. The junk food should be the one a person has to walk over to the shops for. It backwards at the moment, at least most places I've been. The same goes with schools.

When I was in hospital after having Mini V, the slop they tried to feed me was horrendous. Some of the desserts were okay, but the rest of it was tasteless stodge in green, white, and a few other colours. And it was impossible to get anything decent. I kept having Mr. V bring fruit and yogurt and salads. I ate the fruit, yogurt, salads, brown toast, and cheese sarnies until they let us go home.
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Re: Carbohydrate-Insulin Model and obesity

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jul 2018, 10:42am

531colin wrote:If you were working, and had cycled 5 miles to get to the hospital, and had 5 miles to cycle back to work, with the foreman running a stopwatch on how long you were away, a can of coke and a packet of crisps might have to be your lunch.

I'm not a betting man but I'm thinking it would attract long odds the two ladies in question were cycling anywhere or that they were in any rush to get where they were going.
If they were on their lunch break as you suggest,they could've brought their lunch with them,healthy or otherwise and it would have been a lot cheaper if they'd made a couple of sandwiches and an apple at home before they left.

Nobody is actually forced to buy the stuff, its simply offered for sale. You or I might think the 2 fat people made a wrong choice, but its their choice to make
.
Of course it's their choice and I didn't imply that it wasn't but the hospital should IMO,be promoting healthy eating which it isn't with junk food vending machines in waiting rooms.

We do live in a democracy (you may think a democracy of sorts, and I might agree)....but freedom of choice is a cornerstone

Did I claim otherwise?

If you ban vending machines in hospitals "for my own good", its just a short step to banning cycling on the roads....its for your own safety, you know....just like h*lm*t compulsion.

Slippery slope, I fear

That is a very tenuous link IMO.
Cycling is a healthy means of transport and h*lm*t compulsion has been proven to reduce cycling wherever it's been implemented
OTOH if the only food that's available at any given time is junk,junk will be consumed,however if only healthy food is available.....
It's the same at supermarket checkouts.

Re Jamie Oliver, my recollection is that the parents were handing burgers to the kids over the fence, but it might have been David Cameron in drag, I suppose.

My recollection is that,that has been reported and was only a few "free thinking parents" exercising their democratic choice,nor was it connected to the Jamie Oliver healthy eating in schools campaign which was rejected by the Cameron government.
However if parents feel the need to feed their children burgers over the school fence it only illustrates how bad the problem is!

We are the fatest nation in Europe with all the health implications attached to that statistic,it didn't happen by chance or by freedom of choice,as all other European nations AFAIA have the same freedom of choice.....

EDITED for typos
Last edited by reohn2 on 5 Jul 2018, 7:45pm, edited 1 time in total.
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