Keto Diet and Cycling Fitness

ianrobo
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Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby ianrobo » 12 Jan 2017, 11:54pm

A bit of history, please bare with me.

I was a normal standard cyclists for a long time. Did the Marmotte in 11 hours, eat the usual sugar stuff on the ride - jelly babies are fantastic, did it.

However during the training etc I could never get my weight down below 95kgs, so I did some research backed by another fellow rider who gave me advice.

6 months later on Keto, lost 13kg and more importantly no need for sugar/carbs on rides. I can do a 4 hour fasted ride over over 110KM with nothing more than water and electrolytes.

for those of you not aware Keto is brought 70% fat 25% protein and 5% carbs or on average below 50g of carbs per day. That means no pasta, no bread vegetables are fine but fruit is very sugar dense etc.

The main basis of the diet are eggs (the perfect food), meat, fish, diary and vegetables.

Some say a more extreme paleo diet, some say the med diet is better but some falsehoods about that. Go to Greece, France or Spain then their diet is actually full of meat but you never get told that !

The cause of most illnesses is actually inflammation and diabetes T2 (metabolic syndrome) which is basically too much sugar. Remeber as soon as you eat pasta or bread the carbs are turned into sugar straight away causing a big insulin spike which stores the excess sugar as fat.

I now eat actually more calories per day than before and lost weight ... go figure.

Of course cyclists like Froome and Bardet do this but many do without saying so and then eat carbs at key points before races etc. I always remeber seeing a Team Sky barbie and all meat, full of meat and few carbs ....

Carbs are not needed, carbs are not vital and if you want to do long distance endurance rides fat adaption where you use fat as a primary source is the way to go.

My aims for this year

- Do the Dragon dEvil in about 14 hours
- Finish the Marmotte under 8 and half hours

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mjr
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby mjr » 13 Jan 2017, 10:58am

ianrobo wrote:Some say a more extreme paleo diet, some say the med diet is better but some falsehoods about that. Go to Greece, France or Spain then their diet is actually full of meat but you never get told that !

Yes, you do. Please don't state what may be your experience as an absolute.

ianrobo wrote:The cause of most illnesses is actually inflammation and diabetes T2 (metabolic syndrome) which is basically too much sugar.

That's one hypothesis, but there's more support for the lipid hypothesis (which you reject IIRC) than for the metabolic syndrome hypothesis.

ianrobo wrote:Remeber as soon as you eat pasta or bread the carbs are turned into sugar straight away causing a big insulin spike which stores the excess sugar as fat.

As ever, it depends. There's a huge range of glycaemic load among pastas, with some types being double that of others. Similar choice with rice.

If it works for you, then I wish you well and long may it continue, but there's a lot of variety of people out here.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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ianrobo
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby ianrobo » 13 Jan 2017, 11:09am

I never said everyone can or should do this at all but you dismiss it easy why ?

the med diet is a false, go to France and see what they eat (lower levels of heart disease) and a lot of it is fat based.

As for inflammation it is shown reduce those levels and illnesses less. Why do you think that since 1970 and the fat phobic policies brought in then that the incidences of heart disease and especially TDB and obesity has risen almost directly in line ?

Carbs and especially refined carbs are not good for you, the bollox spoken about 'whole grains' is just that.

On cycling specific issue you and I both only have a limited supply of carbs in the body (approx 2K cals) thats why if course people bonk if you do not keep filled up with crappy Gels etc.

Fat even for someone with as low as 10% body fat has the potential to unlock between 10-40k cal of energy. Surely it makes more sense to tap into the fat reserves and leave your carb reserves until you need it ?

Especially for cyclists doing a lot of sportives, audax's etc why carry around a lot of crap for that ? Yes it is a relatively new way of looking at it but one going ground and fast.

Oh you mention the lipid hypothesis, go on what is that then ? in terms of metabolism I am sure you are aware excess sugar gets turned into fat, fat is not turned into fat.

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mjr
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby mjr » 13 Jan 2017, 11:49am

ianrobo wrote:I never said everyone can or should do this at all but you dismiss it easy why ?

Not dismiss, but suggest you're overstating it. Why? Because it doesn't work for me and I believe it could be dangerous for some people to undertake without medical advice.

ianrobo wrote:the med diet is a false, go to France and see what they eat (lower levels of heart disease) and a lot of it is fat based.

I've been to France many times, as well as other Mediterranean countries. I'll happily go again if you'll pay! ;-)

ianrobo wrote:As for inflammation it is shown reduce those levels and illnesses less. Why do you think that since 1970 and the fat phobic policies brought in then that the incidences of heart disease and especially TDB and obesity has risen almost directly in line ?

I can't decipher that. Sorry. I think it may be missing some words.

ianrobo wrote:Carbs and especially refined carbs are not good for you, the bollox spoken about 'whole grains' is just that.

Actually, I agree with you about refined carbs being troublesome, but I'd extend that to most highly-processed foods. I'm not sure what has been spoken to you about "whole grains" to be able to comment on it.

ianrobo wrote:On cycling specific issue you and I both only have a limited supply of carbs in the body (approx 2K cals) thats why if course people bonk if you do not keep filled up with crappy Gels etc.

I don't use gels. The few I tried upset my stomach and gave me a feeling of sugar rush followed by sugar crash. I eat fairly ordinary foods as the need arises. I don't bonk much.

ianrobo wrote:Especially for cyclists doing a lot of sportives, audax's etc why carry around a lot of crap for that ? Yes it is a relatively new way of looking at it but one going ground and fast.

Keto diets have been studied scientifically for over 200 years (Banting's letter and the first mass popularity was in the 1860s), so they're not "relatively new", are they? They have their place, but aren't a panacea.

ianrobo wrote:Oh you mention the lipid hypothesis, go on what is that then ? in terms of metabolism I am sure you are aware excess sugar gets turned into fat, fat is not turned into fat.

The lipid hypothesis is that plasma lipids are not only correlated with coronary heart disease events, but casual, so reduce plasma lipids and you reduce CHD.
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ianrobo
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby ianrobo » 13 Jan 2017, 1:50pm

thanks for the reply and good to have this discussion, on with you with processed foods 100% forget labels like Keto, Med and Paleo diets, the one thing they all are

- higher in fat
- lower in carbs

There is an whole debate over protein I won't go into here !

On gels, I never understood why at the end of long ride I had what people say 'stomach issues' now I do ... In fact I think along with Statin's they are the biggest rip off ever sold to us !

Norman H
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby Norman H » 13 Jan 2017, 3:39pm

It seems to me that the two main reasons for embarking on a ketogenic diet are weight loss, and a desire to make more use of fat reserves for energy. Some people are only interested in the former but athletes, like for instance cyclists, may well be interested in both.

Despite the current popularity of “keto” diets, there are undoubtedly risks for certain individuals who indulges in them, and the jury is still out on whether there are any long term dangers, or indeed benefits, for anyone else. I would advise anyone thinking of embarking on such a diet to at least speak to their GP before doing so.

I can certainly see the attraction, for professional sportsmen, of a legal method of implementing a possible marginal gain. But for recreational cyclist, just as I see no need for energy gels, I think eating a balanced diet is preferable. Similarly for the purpose of weight loss, there are probably alternative ways to achieve the same result without incurring those known and unknown risks.

ianrobo
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby ianrobo » 13 Jan 2017, 4:28pm

Norman H wrote:It seems to me that the two main reasons for embarking on a ketogenic diet are weight loss, and a desire to make more use of fat reserves for energy. Some people are only interested in the former but athletes, like for instance cyclists, may well be interested in both.

Despite the current popularity of “keto” diets, there are undoubtedly risks for certain individuals who indulges in them, and the jury is still out on whether there are any long term dangers, or indeed benefits, for anyone else. I would advise anyone thinking of embarking on such a diet to at least speak to their GP before doing so.

I can certainly see the attraction, for professional sportsmen, of a legal method of implementing a possible marginal gain. But for recreational cyclist, just as I see no need for energy gels, I think eating a balanced diet is preferable. Similarly for the purpose of weight loss, there are probably alternative ways to achieve the same result without incurring those known and unknown risks.


This is Norman if you are not fat adapted then on longer rides no matter how little power you use, you will eventually run out of carbs, that is inevitable. So yes many take rubbish gels or energy bars which I have always found awful or you have to find 'proper' food somewhere or carry it with you.

I am not 100% saying everyone should do it but saying the benefits from my POV, I could argue the point you state that it is bad for some people, there are a small number who are fat resistance but thats not many.

mnichols
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby mnichols » 13 Jan 2017, 6:49pm

I'm very interested in Keto, or at least understanding more about the potential benefits.

I don't have a sweet tooth and don't eat or drink sugary stuff off the bike, but when I'm cycling I do have food and drink that is higher in sugar. If there was an alternative then I would gladly take it.

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mjr
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby mjr » 13 Jan 2017, 7:54pm

Consume more protein? I enjoy an omelette at the café stop, much to the scorn of my cake consuming friends. I sometimes have a cake too, but savory first!

Here's the view from a site that seems popular on this forum https://blog.myfitnesspal.com/ask-the-d ... ight-loss/
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ianrobo
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby ianrobo » 13 Jan 2017, 8:45pm

mnichols wrote:I'm very interested in Keto, or at least understanding more about the potential benefits.

I don't have a sweet tooth and don't eat or drink sugary stuff off the bike, but when I'm cycling I do have food and drink that is higher in sugar. If there was an alternative then I would gladly take it.


OK you have to make a call on this, Keto is mainly those foods I listed and variations, to be fully keto you have to eat less than 50g of carbs a day and that is just over one medium sized potato.

It is not easy, adaption is tough but once you get past that it becomes so much better if that is a life and WOE (way of eating) you can sustain ?

Being in Ketosis will lead to being a fat adapted athlete within 1-2 months then you can use Carbs as I even do just before really big high intense efforts.

I suggest you listen to a few podcasts about this before you go for it to ensure you feel comfortable with it and real Steve Phinney's and Jeff Volek's book Art and Science of low carb performance, it really is the bible for many of us.

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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby Norman H » 14 Jan 2017, 7:50am

ianrobo wrote:

I could argue the point you state that it is bad for some people



One group at risk is people with type 2 diabetes, possibly as an undiagnosed condition. Paradoxically a ketogenic diet can be useful for some type 2 diabetics in controlling their condition but it should never be undertaken without medical supervision or without careful monitoring of both glucose and ketone levels.

ianrobo
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby ianrobo » 14 Jan 2017, 8:38am

Norman H wrote:
ianrobo wrote:

I could argue the point you state that it is bad for some people



One group at risk is people with type 2 diabetes, possibly as an undiagnosed condition. Paradoxically a ketogenic diet can be useful for some type 2 diabetics in controlling their condition but it should never be undertaken without medical supervision or without careful monitoring of both glucose and ketone levels.


ah the fear of ketoacidois ..

nope I would say go to a doctor and they will just say keep on taking those expensive meds for which we get big kickbacks on. Few GP's will understand this and I would say for any Type 2 (Type1 is a big difference) then Leto or at least a LCHF diet is a must.

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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby mjr » 16 Jan 2017, 10:25am

ianrobo wrote:nope I would say go to a doctor and they will just say keep on taking those expensive meds for which we get big kickbacks on. Few GP's will understand this and I would say for any Type 2 (Type1 is a big difference) then Leto or at least a LCHF diet is a must.

(emphasis mine) Probably, but - as with statins and hyperlipidemiac care - follow-the-script GP care of chronically-ill people can be a big part of the problem, unless you get one of the few that will understand it. If such a person is trying something like this, they should seek specialist medical advice from dieticians and a specialist clinic. Taking an ostrich approach, discontinuing conventional medication abruptly and blindly bashing forwards is not a good solution.

I would also question whether the number of doctors getting "big kickbacks" is as high as some quacks claim, or as influential. There are problems with the interface between private drug companies and the NHS, but it's used by a heck of a lot of people as a scapegoat, including many who aren't in favour of nationalisation of other public services, so it's worth asking what their reason is here and if it's the public interest or a way for even greater private profit from healthcare: perhaps by greater patient choice to pick more expensive treatments - because more expensive must be better, right? :lol: - to encourage unregulated direct sales from the drug companies to patients, or to get more people buying more profitable, cheaper-to-make, medically-null supplements.
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby Vorpal » 16 Jan 2017, 12:02pm

ianrobo wrote:ah the fear of ketoacidois ..

nope I would say go to a doctor and they will just say keep on taking those expensive meds for which we get big kickbacks on. Few GP's will understand this and I would say for any Type 2 (Type1 is a big difference) then Leto or at least a LCHF diet is a must.

Extreme changes in diet can be problematic for anyone, but I would never unconditionally recommend a diet like this to diabetics.

Firstly, type 2 diabetics can also suffer ketoacidosis under some circumstances, and those taking steroids or who have some other health conditions, or who have infections are potentially at risk.

Secondly, while conventional medicine is far from perfect, most GPs try to avoid keeping people on medications that they don't need, and will encourage people with type 2 diabetes to control it through diet and exercise.

GPs are often given samples and free pens by the pharmaceutical companies, but they have to follow NICE guidelines, so kickbacks to GPs would have little affect. The situation may be different in places like the US, where individual practioners have much more control over prescription practice. Even there, they now have to report everything they receive from pharmaceutical companies to the US government, which makes the information available to the public.

Lastly, the commonly prescribed medications for type 2 are not expensive, there are generic alternatives, and/or multiple manufacturers.

That doesn't mean that someone with type 2 couldn't benefit. Just that I think they require more caution than the average person in proceeding with such a diet. And it may be inadviseable if the person also suffers from other health conditions.
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ianrobo
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Re: Keto for cycling, why the heck not ?

Postby ianrobo » 16 Jan 2017, 6:32pm

Vorpal wrote:
ianrobo wrote:ah the fear of ketoacidois ..

nope I would say go to a doctor and they will just say keep on taking those expensive meds for which we get big kickbacks on. Few GP's will understand this and I would say for any Type 2 (Type1 is a big difference) then Leto or at least a LCHF diet is a must.

Extreme changes in diet can be problematic for anyone, but I would never unconditionally recommend a diet like this to diabetics.

Firstly, type 2 diabetics can also suffer ketoacidosis under some circumstances, and those taking steroids or who have some other health conditions, or who have infections are potentially at risk.

Secondly, while conventional medicine is far from perfect, most GPs try to avoid keeping people on medications that they don't need, and will encourage people with type 2 diabetes to control it through diet and exercise.

GPs are often given samples and free pens by the pharmaceutical companies, but they have to follow NICE guidelines, so kickbacks to GPs would have little affect. The situation may be different in places like the US, where individual practioners have much more control over prescription practice. Even there, they now have to report everything they receive from pharmaceutical companies to the US government, which makes the information available to the public.

Lastly, the commonly prescribed medications for type 2 are not expensive, there are generic alternatives, and/or multiple manufacturers.

That doesn't mean that someone with type 2 couldn't benefit. Just that I think they require more caution than the average person in proceeding with such a diet. And it may be inadviseable if the person also suffers from other health conditions.


This is the UK advice for T2D

Eat plenty of starchy carbohydrates with a low glycemic index (low GI)
Increase the amount of fibre in your diet
Eat plenty of fruit and vegetables - at least 5 portions per day
Cut down on fat and saturated fat in particular
Choose foods with unsaturated fat instead - such as vegetable oils, reduced fat spreads, oily fish and avocados
Choose low-fat dairy products
Choose lean meat - such as skinless chicken
Avoid fatty or processed meat
Eat fish at least twice a week and ensure you have oily fish at least once a week
Eggs and beans are other good sources of protein
Cook food by grilling, baking, poaching or steaming instead of frying or roasting
Avoid fatty or sugary snacks - such as crisps, cakes, biscuits and pastries
Eat snacks such as fruit, unsalted nuts and low-fat yoghurts
Cut down on sugar
Eat less salt - have less than 6g of salt (2.4g of sodium) per day
Cut down on alcohol
Don’t skip breakfast
Keep hydrated - aim to drink between 1.6 and 2 litres of fluid each day

=========

Starchy carbs, as soon as they hit the stomach they get turned into sugar, ok slowly but still sugar
Fibre - one of the biggest myths ever, I am less than 10MG all from cabbage, broccoli etc and never been so regular and solid, before as carb man, awful
Fruit and veg, fine
cut down on sautéed fat - what a friggin joke, no evidence at all for fat = T2B fat does not and will never cause a sugar spike. OK if you believe fat causes T2D as a medical person you need serious look at your training
It said pick low fat fairy and cut down on sugar - ha ha ha Low fat diary look at the label - full of sugar, hence why yoghurts so popular, they are addictive

shall I carry on because this whole advice will cause T2D and never cure a single person, cutting sugar out of your diet will, proven by many cases. If you are a alcoholic with a serious disease do doctors say carry on drinking ?

However this thread is about cycling and the positive impact I have found from going to low carb (note I have carbs just not processed food crap) and trying to maybe help someone who is thinking about mnichols above ...

Maybe I preach about it but tell you what for me personally it seems to bloody work and well.