Knee Pain

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 13191
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Knee Pain

Postby 531colin » 21 Sep 2020, 11:00pm

PaulS wrote:........ I noticed that by dropping the seat my knees have moved about 20-30mm forward of KOPS (it was bang on with the higher seat). I cannot move the seat further back, and already have a layback seat-post. Maybe that makes my toes dip - or maybe not. ...

Dropping the saddle 30mm with a seat tube angle of seventy-something degrees will move your bum **back** forwards a few millimetres. Thats not enough to move your centre of mass much, if you want to determine your saddle setback by the balance point method.https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/
Of course most of the change to KOPS is because your thigh is closer to horizontal and your knee further forward.
If you watch the pedalling action of the pro. peloton, they all pedal toe down (these days). I think thats a by-product of the continuing search for an aero position; the rider basically rotates round the pedal spindle, the bars go down and forward, the saddle goes up and forward. Ordinary mortals who try to ride in that position (with ordinary power output/core strength/functionality) find too much weight on their hands.
The reverse is also true, in my experience its easier for riders to "get their heels down" if the saddle is well back.
As you say, its possible you have "learned" to toe-dip with your recent high saddle...you may "forget" in time, I guess.
**EDIT....that should read forwards, obviously.
Last edited by 531colin on 23 Sep 2020, 9:17am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 13191
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Knee Pain

Postby 531colin » 21 Sep 2020, 11:10pm

Just stumbled on this....https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/11/knee-pain/
Its got to be worth a read, but not at this time of night....I need to be on my game to get the best out of his stuff!

PaulS
Posts: 69
Joined: 26 Jan 2012, 6:45am
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: Knee Pain

Postby PaulS » 22 Sep 2020, 8:13am

531colin wrote:You are more likely to get injured with too high a saddle than too low. (stretching for the bottom pedal)

Set your saddle low enough so that you can pedal smoothly "through the bottom" at high cadence on your worst day, when you are tired and your legs are stiff.


Good point about setting the saddle for tired legs. I am doing all this with fresh legs, and lots of concentration. Once I am up to strength again I will repeat the photos at the end of a long ride, with tired legs. That will have to wait though - slowly slowly.

Thanks for the link to the article. I'll read that too.

Fat tyre kicker
Posts: 14
Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 3:54pm

Re: Knee Pain

Postby Fat tyre kicker » 22 Sep 2020, 11:38am

I'm (nearly) 53 and been struggling with my knees for a few years, I've been down the
Nhs route and I've been seen by an excellent physio who, after X-rays and scans etc
Has just put it down to wear and tear, I have 1 shoulder in the same condition, all
Put down to an over exuberant youth and my inability to keep motorbikes upright :D
After thinking my cycling days were numbered he has me doing tension band exercises
And stretches, I'm incorporating this with some weight loss ( well trying anyway)
Just bought another project bike so not giving up yet !! Will update this thread with
My journey ( nb...hardly turned a wheel this year due to covid and a career change )
But aiming to change that :D

Cowsham
Posts: 785
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Knee Pain

Postby Cowsham » 22 Sep 2020, 1:42pm

^

Don't ever give up on physical exercise it's amazing what the right type can do for injury or age related health problems but everything in moderation is a very good adage too. I think it's routine that's the key not fits and starts, it must be something that will be a feature of your daily or weekly routine for the rest of your life.

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 12345
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: Knee Pain

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 22 Sep 2020, 6:11pm

Hi,
I was going to post several times but I have a theory :P

I have not changed my set up despite some pains and I feel some niggles of late.
I gave up once after messing with set up...thats stopped cycling for ten years :( ....well why would my set up not work if it had previously been fine?
I am now 62 and I have been keeping up with physio exercises for long standing conditions with my ankles back and duff shoulder.
But I have not changed my set up.
I do feel that a lot of problems seem to hit middle and late age aged people who were previously fit, on these posts.
As you get older your exercise which would be satisfactory to keep you fit will not be enough to counter natural old age?
As I get older any layoff even reducing work time exercise by even 25% seems to send me backwards.
I get more tired and skip a few days training.......................then I come back and find that because my work time has reduced over a few weeks................the hills I was skipping now give me a few small niggles.

Take walking-
I have of late been doing more walking to substitute the treadmill which would normally be walk jog walk.
I am now down to 70 minutes for five miles off road in the dark with no ankle pains at all after just a few weeks......previously I was suffering after a few miles.
I do at least 20 minutes of daily exercises for bad back, which can develop into pain and weakness in the legs.
Exercises for unstable ankles, which I was probably born with....over flexible ankles.
Exercises for my permanent dislocated collar bone.
Even hand exercises for my hands after a week tour......resulting in in muscle loss in one hand very visible and still visible after a year.

How many of us can still do what we used to when we were 21 at even 30.....40...let alone 50.............and on?

I don't believe that you should change set up but tackle the weakening muscles / tendons / ligaments?
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.

Cowsham
Posts: 785
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Knee Pain

Postby Cowsham » 22 Sep 2020, 7:36pm

^

Good advice -- what happened to the hand, was it just the pressure on the handle bars during the trip?

User avatar
foxyrider
Posts: 5172
Joined: 29 Aug 2011, 10:25am
Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Re: Knee Pain

Postby foxyrider » 22 Sep 2020, 8:33pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
I was going to post several times but I have a theory :P

I have not changed my set up despite some pains and I feel some niggles of late.
I gave up once after messing with set up...thats stopped cycling for ten years :( ....well why would my set up not work if it had previously been fine?
I am now 62 and I have been keeping up with physio exercises for long standing conditions with my ankles back and duff shoulder.
But I have not changed my set up.
I do feel that a lot of problems seem to hit middle and late age aged people who were previously fit, on these posts.
As you get older your exercise which would be satisfactory to keep you fit will not be enough to counter natural old age?
As I get older any layoff even reducing work time exercise by even 25% seems to send me backwards.
I get more tired and skip a few days training.......................then I come back and find that because my work time has reduced over a few weeks................the hills I was skipping now give me a few small niggles.



How many of us can still do what we used to when we were 21 at even 30.....40...let alone 50.............and on?

I don't believe that you should change set up but tackle the weakening muscles / tendons / ligaments?


You have five years on me but i can honestly say that i do as much if not more daft stuff on bikes now than i did in my 'prime'! Okay, i may not ride as fast but these days but thats largely because i'm not racing and don't need to be eyeballs out all the time, when i ride sportives there aren't many going around quicker, i'm usually giving @ 30 years to most of them! I do still ride the same position as i did as a yoof the difference now is that i'm better able to feel my fitness and adjust my expectations accordingly. Doesn't mean i always get it right, i'm just this week back on the bike after 2 weeks off due to crash injuries to my shoulder + hand (left arm, right hand - go figure), i got a bit carried away today after a comfortable 30 miler yesterday, the sixty miles was too big a step up, 45 would've been more appropriate - result, overly tired and quite sore injury sites.

We are all different, our bodies need different things, maybe different types of exercise would suit some of us better than our chosen primary. All things being equal i've got another thirty years of this lark to look forward to (pater will be 90 in a few weeks) so i intend to be as fit and active as is possible for as much of that time as possible. i don't rule out needing to change my position, much as an e=bike may be in my future but for now at least, nothing is moving :lol:
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 13191
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Knee Pain

Postby 531colin » 22 Sep 2020, 9:12pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:........
I don't believe that you should change set up but tackle the weakening muscles / tendons / ligaments?

Good luck with that. You'll change your mind at some time in the next 10 years.

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 13191
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Knee Pain

Postby 531colin » 22 Sep 2020, 9:22pm

531colin wrote:Just stumbled on this....https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/11/knee-pain/
Its got to be worth a read, but not at this time of night....I need to be on my game to get the best out of his stuff!

Had a quick scan through this just now. Very interesting bit about tight ITB.

Cowsham
Posts: 785
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Knee Pain

Postby Cowsham » 22 Sep 2020, 11:10pm

There's one thing I'm starting to learn about athlete and mostly cyclists long term high activity. It seems a lot of them have a particular type of heart complaint. An enlarged heart where the muscles of the heart have lost some flexibility so over doing it isn't good either. I have two friends like this one is same age as me but I haven't been in competition anywhere near as long as him.

Jdsk
Posts: 3772
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Knee Pain

Postby Jdsk » 22 Sep 2020, 11:15pm

Are you thinking of athletic heart syndrome or hypertrophic cardiomyopathy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletic_heart_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertrophic_cardiomyopathy

"Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy in Athletes"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6223355/

Jonathan

Cowsham
Posts: 785
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Knee Pain

Postby Cowsham » 23 Sep 2020, 1:04am

^
Weight lifting friend has something like the first link shows

The cycling friend ( a bit older ) has something like Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy in second link but seems to have a higher than usual heart rate when he tries to cycle. He's had stints in too scary stuff.

Cowsham
Posts: 785
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Knee Pain

Postby Cowsham » 23 Sep 2020, 1:40am

Very similar to what this cuk member is describing.
viewtopic.php?t=122799

The chap I know is a local well known competition cyclist and now into his 60's

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 12345
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: Knee Pain

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 25 Sep 2020, 1:57am

Cowsham wrote:Good advice -- what happened to the hand, was it just the pressure on the handle bars during the trip?

Right hand came back to being stronger as was before ride.
Still some noticeable muscle loss between thumb and index. one year on.
Bruised Ulna nerve which affects the thumb index second, still do hand exercises when I remember.
Some pain in the outer rear under flesh when riding.
Will need to add some extra padding before next tour.
I have recently got some of these-
ROCKBROS GLOVES M-CYCLE GEL 2.jpg
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROCKBROS-Autumn-Non-slip-Touch-Screen-Full-Finger-Gloves-For-Motorcycle-Bike/254591648479?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=554326409529&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648

Early days but looks like plenty padding right where you need it.
It was the constant hills in corwall which did my hands in, having to hold onto the lever on the drops (RH) all the way to the bottom :P :(
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.