Face masks: Why? Why not?

T-800
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby T-800 » 25 Apr 2020, 2:01pm

Tinnishill wrote:This is a copy of a post on the UK Climbing forum. Point 12 is especially worth adhering to.

1. You MUST NOT leave the house for any reason, but if you have a reason you can leave the house
2. Masks are useless at protecting you from the virus, but you may have to wear one because it can save lives, but they may not work, but they be mandatory, but they may not
3. Shops are closed, except those that are open
4. You must not go to work but you can get another job and go to work
5. You should not go to the hospital or to the doctors unless you have to go there, unless you are too poorly to go there
6. The virus can kill people, but don't be scared of it. It can only kill people who are vulnerable or sometimes those who are not vulnerable. It's possible to contain and control it, sometimes, except that sometimes it leads to a global disaster
7. Gloves don't help, but they can still help sometimes
8. STAY HOME, but sometimes it's important to go out
9. There is no shortage of groceries in the supermarkets, but there are many things missing. Sometimes you won't need loo rolls but you should buy some just in case you do need some
10. The virus has no effect on young people except for those it does effect
11. Animals are not affected, but there is a cat that tested positive in Belgium plus some tigers
12. Stay away from tigers
13. You will have many symptoms if you get the virus, but you can also get symptoms without getting the virus, get the virus without getting any symptoms, or be contagious without having symptoms, or be non contagious with symptoms
14. To help protect yourself you should eat well and exercise, but eat whatever you have to hand as it's best not go out shopping
15. It's important to get fresh air but don't go to parks but go for a walk, but don't sit down, except if you are old, but not for too long, or if you are pregnant or if you not old or pregnant but need to sit down. If you do sit down don't eat a picnic
16. Don't visit old people but you have to take care of the old people and bring them food and medication
17. If you are sick you can go out when you are better but anyone else in your household can't go out unless they need to go out
18. You can get restaurant food delivered. These deliveries are safe. But groceries you bring back to the house have to be decontaminated outside your house for 3 hours including pizza...
19. You can't see you mother or granny, but they can take a taxi and meet an older taxi driver
20.  You are safe if you maintain a safe social distance when out but you can't go out with friends or strangers at the safe social distance
21. The virus remains active on different surfaces for 2 hours, or 4 hours, or 6... I mean days, not hours... But it needs a damp environment, or a cold environment that is warm and dry... in the air as long as it's not plastic
22. Schools are closed so you need to home educate your children, unless you can send them to school because you are not at home. If you are at home you can home educate your children using various portals and virtual classrooms unless you have no internet, or more than one child and only one computer, or you are working from home. Baking cakes can be considered maths, science or art. If you are you are home educating you can include household chores as education. If you are home educating you can start drinking at 10am
23. If you are not home educating children you can start drinking at 10am 
24. The number of covid 19 deaths will be announced daily but we don't know how many people are infected as they are only testing those that are almost dead to find out if that is what they will die of... The people who die of covid who aren't counted won't be counted
25. You should stay locked down until the virus stops infecting people but it will only stop infecting people if we all get infected so it's important we get infected and some don't get infected
26. No business will go under due to covid 19 except those businesses that have already gone under
I hope this clears thing up


Groundhog, UKC forum

That could actually have been written by the Govt :lol:
On second thoughts no.....It makes more sense than the stuff they're putting out :roll:

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simonineaston
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby simonineaston » 25 Apr 2020, 2:33pm

Excellent summary - I'm gonna print it out and stick it to the fridge ;-)
The weird thing about masks is that i) the theory about them is just difficult enough to be beyond most * peoples' understanding, ii) on an individual basis, there'll never be any evidence whether wearing one a) kept any of your loved ones safe, or b) kept any other person anywhere safe, and iii) no-one will ever know whether they did ** - or didn't - catch the bug, on account of them wearing or not wearing, a mask. Go figure... I am so not wearing one, on my cycle rides! (Although I rather wish I was, on account of all the buzzy bugs.)
* I am of course speaking for myself. ** There's plenty of evidence that wearing a mask and not following proper procedure raises the risk of the wearer becoming infected.
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

softlips
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby softlips » 26 Apr 2020, 5:16pm

Jdsk wrote:
softlips wrote:There is more evidence that masks increase the transmission of infections than reduce it.

Please could you add the main sources for that.

Thanks

Jonathan


To be honest I can’t be buttocked to look things up. But I work in operating theatres all over the world on a weekly basis and the evidence is the reason you don’t see them worn so much now (well pre C19).

Jdsk
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby Jdsk » 26 Apr 2020, 5:27pm

Putting the outbreak to one side... it's recently become apparent that there isn't much evidence of effectiveness. That's a very long way from there being evidence that they increase infection rates.

Cochrane: "Disposable surgical face masks for preventing surgical wound infection in clean surgery"
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD002929.pub3/full?

Jonathan

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 29 Apr 2020, 12:38pm

The increase theory is that people tend to fiddle with them (i.e. put their hands by their mouths a lot)

The decrease theory is more that it stops the person wearing the mask transmitting viruses as easily to others - i.e. it's to reduce the risk of you passing it on if you unknowingly have it.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby Oldjohnw » 29 Apr 2020, 1:26pm

Last week I saw a man coming out of Marks and Spencer wearing disposable gloves to protect himself. He kept touching his face.
John

windmiller
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby windmiller » 30 Apr 2020, 7:19am

while shopping in a large supermarket I observed a helmeted cyclist wandering the wrong way up the aisles and sweating lke a pit pony. Not wearing gloves or a mask of course. :roll:

colin54
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby colin54 » 30 Apr 2020, 9:58am

ref:Rule 12(a), up-thread, if distancing is impossible and the correct feline mask is unavailable, a face covering of some form may be substituted as a temporary measure with some, but possibly limited benefit, the animal may require some assistance with fitting said item.
P1130210.JPG

Good luck.

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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby mjr » 30 Apr 2020, 2:22pm

LinusR wrote:There is no suggestion that they are any use if you are keeping your distance from people while walking or cycling. I've seen drivers - on their own in a car - driving with a mask on. Pointless.

They blooming well are useful! You'll see me cycling with a "mask" (actually a buff) up over my mouth. It stops me feeling the cold painfully through my teeth! :lol:

That said, I have actually put my doubled-buff up over my mouth and nose while in shops and so on recently. This is not to protect myself but more in case I've caught c19 and don't know it yet then I might reduce the risk of infecting the shopkeeper who would probably infect other shoppers. I'm fairly careful not to touch the inside of it and it goes in the wash after a shopping trip, so I don't see a particular drawback to putting it up if I'm wearing it anyway.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby Oldjohnw » 30 Apr 2020, 2:37pm

Mike Pence seems almost as stupid as his boss. When visiting the Mayo clinic he was the only person not wearing a mask. When asked why he didn't he said it was so he could look the staff in the eye.

He obviously either didn't realise you don't need to pull it over your eyes or he thought you saw through your mouth.
John

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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby mjr » 30 Apr 2020, 2:38pm

Here's the ECDC's infographic suggesting cloth masks for the public:
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publicati ... -community

From memory of an RTS (Swiss) news item, cloth masks typically cut the virus expulsion by about 50%, surgical masks by 80% and properly-fitted respirator masks by 95-99%, so hopefully you can understand why the cost-benefit means the best masks should go to health and care workers first, then potential "social spreaders" like shopkeepers and transport workers.

Belgium is issuing everyone with a mask before the end of lockdown. https://www.belgium.be/en/news/2020/coronavirus - use will be compulsory on public transport and in some other situations. The defence minister has been put in charge of this activity, while unpopular health minister Maggie de Block has been calling public masks "a false sense of security".
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screenshot_2020-04-29_14-36-18.jpg
Health Minister saying masks are "a false sense of security"
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simonineaston
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby simonineaston » 30 Apr 2020, 2:39pm

mjr wrote:
LinusR wrote:That said, I have actually put my doubled-buff up over my mouth and nose while in shops and so on recently. This is not to protect myself but more in case I've caught c19 and don't know it yet then I might reduce the risk of infecting the shopkeeper who would probably infect other shoppers. I'm fairly careful not to touch the inside of it and it goes in the wash after a shopping trip, so I don't see a particular drawback to putting it up if I'm wearing it anyway.
As far as I'm aware, you have quite neatly summarised the single recognized plus for wearing a mask - that is to say, reducing risk for third-parties, based on the ability of the fabric to physically reduce the amount of spray coming out of your face... but don't forget to wash that sucker, like you say you do. The buff might be picking up spray from other infected persons, and those little critters will enjoy sitting there, all warm, moist and cosy, until you wear it next time and suck in air thorough the mesh.........
A) Likelihood of your being unknowingly infected and by wearing a mask, saving others? Who knows! B) Likelihood of you passing within air-sucking distance of an infected person? Who knows again! But B is a bigger number than A. Net gain for the world of you wearing a mask? Teeny Weeny. Net gain for you by wearing a mask? None - indeed may well increase your risk of infection.
ttfn, Simon in Easton
(currently enjoying a Moulton TSR & a nano Brompton...)

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mjr
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby mjr » 30 Apr 2020, 3:11pm

simonineaston wrote:A) Likelihood of your being unknowingly infected and by wearing a mask, saving others? Who knows! B) Likelihood of you passing within air-sucking distance of an infected person? Who knows again! But B is a bigger number than A.

Maybe not, out here in the fields. The closest I got to anyone on today's shopping trip was the shopkeeper and that was strictly two arms lengths to hand over payment. I saw another shopper but they were earlier in the shop and we didn't get close, plus a couple of postmen at a distance, one villager talking to one of the postmen, one walker (on a stretch of C road I've never seen anyone walk on) and two roadmenders.

Also, do you really mean likelihood rather than probability there?

simonineaston wrote:Net gain for the world of you wearing a mask? Teeny Weeny. Net gain for you by wearing a mask? None - indeed may well increase your risk of infection.

It may or it may not and teeny-weeny multiplied by a country may make a difference to the reproduction rate of the virus. With so many countries adopting masks and it looking like the UK won't, we may be about to get some comparison data to enable better estimates than "who knows".
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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby Tangled Metal » 30 Apr 2020, 9:49pm

Throughout this outbreak I've seen one or two people who look like they were wearing masks properly. One had an amazingly industrial mask with large filters and clearly face fit for the user. We have a few stations at work where operators wear similar but slightly less industrial versions. N99 masks IIRC. The other had a valved disposable mask but had it very well fitted.

Everyone else was wearing bandanas or various cheapo masks. Common mistakes I've seen include nose uncovered, constant messing around with it, no eye protection (IIRC it can infect through the eyes hence faceshields or goggles), pulling mask down to talk to people plus others I've forgotten about.

What point is a mask that isn't being worn well or played with or potentially contaminated?

There's a Hong Kong company that makes clear N95 masks for cycling and other general public use. Totobobo IIRC. They're transparent and you form a moisture buildup inside the mask. This forms a moisture ring where the seal is formed. When you see a break in this you've got a leak/ingress point. IMHO they're a good mask for novice mask wearers IF they don't play with it after obtaining that perfect seal.

BTW I saw a face fit test carried out in a hospital when a journalist was going into COVID area. The mask was correctly fitted then a large, transparent, rigid hood put over the head. Through a hole in the front a chemical was sprayed in. If the mask is fitted properly the user was ok. If not the user got an obnoxious chemical up they're nose that was like a pepper spray up your nose. The journo took off the hood then his mask and the chemical was still in the air so he got to know what the mask stopped.

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Re: Face masks: Why? Why not?

Postby mjr » 30 Apr 2020, 10:32pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Everyone else was wearing bandanas or various cheapo masks. Common mistakes I've seen include nose uncovered, constant messing around with it, no eye protection (IIRC it can infect through the eyes hence faceshields or goggles), pulling mask down to talk to people plus others I've forgotten about.

What point is a mask that isn't being worn well or played with or potentially contaminated?

Aren't they all "potentially contaminated"? But anyway, as hinted above, it depends if you're hoping to save yourself (a cheapo probably won't) or others (it might).

Tangled Metal wrote:BTW I saw a face fit test carried out in a hospital when a journalist was going into COVID area. The mask was correctly fitted then a large, transparent, rigid hood put over the head. Through a hole in the front a chemical was sprayed in. If the mask is fitted properly the user was ok. If not the user got an obnoxious chemical up they're nose that was like a pepper spray up your nose. The journo took off the hood then his mask and the chemical was still in the air so he got to know what the mask stopped.

Yeah, I've seen that. It didn't seem like the greatest test when one of the widespread symptoms of COVID is loss of smell, but I guess the lack of reaction to the obnoxious chemical at the end would at least suggest that the non-COVID area is probably now contaminated!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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