Unable to honk

ANTONISH
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby ANTONISH » 22 May 2020, 8:33am

foxyrider wrote:
Depth of the bars is a bit of red herring in this conversation as you don't Honk from the drops!


Some cyclists do.

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Paulatic
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby Paulatic » 22 May 2020, 8:50am

ANTONISH wrote:
foxyrider wrote:
Depth of the bars is a bit of red herring in this conversation as you don't Honk from the drops!


Some cyclists do.


But is that effective? Won’t it make you stick your bum out and you want it in and over the pedals.
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby Vorpal » 22 May 2020, 9:36am

When I was playing football & training a lot for that (2003 - 2008) I didn't cycle so much. Most of my rides were only a few miles, and there were a couple of years, that my bike only got used 2 or 3 times in the year. I was fit, just not cycling much. When I quit playing football, and started cycling much more again, I couldn't honk; on a bike I had toured on, and commuted on for years.

I think that it was combination of what my muscles were used to, and confidence handling the bike. It wasn't too long before I could do it again, but it some time before I was really comfortable doing it again. And I would say that I have never, since then, been as comfortable honking as I was when I was younger, and I don't do it as often.

I did get quite a bit better at it when I moved to Norway. My commute to work is almost 1000' climbing, and I pushed myself to do some of it every day out of the saddle, both to improve my climbing fitness, and get better at honking. That helped alot.

So, my advice, for what it worth is to practice & push yourself, and it will come back.
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ANTONISH
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby ANTONISH » 24 May 2020, 10:17am

Paulatic wrote:
ANTONISH wrote:
foxyrider wrote:
Depth of the bars is a bit of red herring in this conversation as you don't Honk from the drops!


Some cyclists do.


But is that effective? Won’t it make you stick your bum out and you want it in and over the pedals.


[img
Charly Gaul.jpg
Charly Gaul.jpg (16.48 KiB) Viewed 225 times
][/img]

also see Marco Pantani, Raymond Poulidor, Henny Kuiper and lots of other professionals. If you are on the drops and you come to a rise you may do this as opposed to changing your hand position. Pantani often climbed on the drops and got out of the saddle while remaining on the drops.

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foxyrider
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby foxyrider » 25 May 2020, 11:58am

ANTONISH wrote:
Paulatic wrote:
ANTONISH wrote:
Some cyclists do.


But is that effective? Won’t it make you stick your bum out and you want it in and over the pedals.


[imgCharly Gaul.jpg][/img]

also see Marco Pantani, Raymond Poulidor, Henny Kuiper and lots of other professionals. If you are on the drops and you come to a rise you may do this as opposed to changing your hand position. Pantani often climbed on the drops and got out of the saddle while remaining on the drops.


In the pic his bars are very shallow reach wise with a long 'tail' which means his arms are behind the bar, most modern road bars wouldn't allow this instead forcing an awkward 'around the bar' stance.
Convention? what's that then?
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Mick F
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby Mick F » 25 May 2020, 5:10pm

Arm length, leg length, torso length.

Are you an ape?
Difficult to search this forum using the search facility, but Google is your friend perhaps.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=82197

This is from that thread:
Mick F wrote:
horizon wrote:6. I thought for a long time that the issue was about wanting drops and the fact that you stretch forward onto the hoods and that switching to straight bars would solve the problem. In fact I now think that isn't altogether true: you may want to place your hands on the leading edge of the drops (nearest to you) or on the "shoulders". This part of the drops should be equivalent to a straight bar. But if the bars are too far away, even this position won't be quite right and neither are straight bars though of course not as bad as reaching to the brake hoods. This also tends to exclude drop bars with less reach - basically they are just too far away.
Until this thread arrived, I always thought that I was Mr Average.

The thing is, I still consider myself Mr Average because I have never ever had any problem buying shirts, suits, jumpers, trousers because they all fit straight off the peg.

It now transpires that I'm an ape with 4" or maybe 6" longer reach than my height. Dunno how I fit into shirts and suits without a problem with arm length! I do, honestly. Therefore people with shorter arms than me must have terrible problems.

Now, reading Horizon's post, it makes me realise why I'm happy on drops and see no aerodynamic benefit from going down on the drops. I can reach the tops, the hoods, and the drops without moving my body much at all. The reach is all the same to me.

Until I read this thread, I thought everybody was the same as me, but now I realise that I'm quite blessed having longer arms. It makes me very tolerant of bike-fit and why my Mercian was so easy to design for me.
Mick F. Cornwall

ANTONISH
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby ANTONISH » 25 May 2020, 6:10pm

foxyrider wrote:
ANTONISH wrote:
Paulatic wrote:
But is that effective? Won’t it make you stick your bum out and you want it in and over the pedals.


[imgCharly Gaul.jpg][/img]

also see Marco Pantani, Raymond Poulidor, Henny Kuiper and lots of other professionals. If you are on the drops and you come to a rise you may do this as opposed to changing your hand position. Pantani often climbed on the drops and got out of the saddle while remaining on the drops.


In the pic his bars are very shallow reach wise with a long 'tail' which means his arms are behind the bar, most modern road bars wouldn't allow this instead forcing an awkward 'around the bar' stance.


[img]
Pantani.jpg
[/img]

1998 on the Peyresourde - he was 2km from the top and well clear That was his chosen position. I can find other examples but in the end I suspect you won't be convinced.
Image Attachments
Pantani.jpg

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foxyrider
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby foxyrider » 25 May 2020, 8:47pm

ANTONISH wrote:
foxyrider wrote:
ANTONISH wrote:
[imgCharly Gaul.jpg][/img]

also see Marco Pantani, Raymond Poulidor, Henny Kuiper and lots of other professionals. If you are on the drops and you come to a rise you may do this as opposed to changing your hand position. Pantani often climbed on the drops and got out of the saddle while remaining on the drops.


In the pic his bars are very shallow reach wise with a long 'tail' which means his arms are behind the bar, most modern road bars wouldn't allow this instead forcing an awkward 'around the bar' stance.


[img]Pantani.jpg[/img]

1998 on the Peyresourde - he was 2km from the top and well clear That was his chosen position. I can find other examples but in the end I suspect you won't be convinced.


You missed my point about the bar shape affecting the ability to do this, your Pantani pic shows his arms behind the bar which again suggests a short forward reach bar or at least one with a long rear facing section - most modern road bars are just not that shape.

Of course the other question is, is that really honking? :wink:
Convention? what's that then?
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ANTONISH
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby ANTONISH » 26 May 2020, 9:10am

foxyrider wrote:
ANTONISH wrote:
foxyrider wrote:
In the pic his bars are very shallow reach wise with a long 'tail' which means his arms are behind the bar, most modern road bars wouldn't allow this instead forcing an awkward 'around the bar' stance.


[img]Pantani.jpg[/img]

1998 on the Peyresourde - he was 2km from the top and well clear That was his chosen position. I can find other examples but in the end I suspect you won't be convinced.


You missed my point about the bar shape affecting the ability to do this, your Pantani pic shows his arms behind the bar which again suggests a short forward reach bar or at least one with a long rear facing section - most modern road bars are just not that shape.

Of course the other question is, is that really honking? :wink:


OK Honking on the drops isn't honking on the drops if you are not using a "modern" handlebar of a particular geometry.
My modern shallow drop bars obviously wouldn't comply as they have less forward reach than the ancient Cinelli Giros that I used to favour.

I don't like the expression honking as I associate it with someone struggling up a climb out the saddle.
Pantani isn't struggling - so I would say he was climbing "en puissance" - deliberately climbing out of the saddle to increase his power output.

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Re: Unable to honk

Postby Peter F » 27 May 2020, 8:27pm

jimlews wrote:
mattsccm wrote:On the other hand Jim it allows you to power up a hill without loosing speed or tackle a hill without dropping a gear or riding a hill thatsxrather steep. Of course leisure cycling to me is coming back knackered or there was minimal point in being out. Crusing around with minimal effort is not why i cycle.


We obviously cycle for different reasons. Different strokes etc.

My primary motivation is to see the countryside in all it's bucolic languor. I am a non competitive cyclist and generally ride alone for the quiet contemplation of the landscape. Dropping down a gear holds no terrors for me; I don't feel that my masculinity has been compromised by so doing. Indeed, I feel that to not avail myself of the lowest gear ratio available is just daft. The machismo of the racing ethos has a lot to answer for.

I'm not sure if you intended it to be, but how wonderfully insulting :D
I ride alone most of the time, either commuting or for leisure but I "Honk" sometimes. Not because of machismo or because I'm concerned about my masculinity, but because sometimes I want to try and maintain a certain pace up a hill. It all depends on why I'm cycling. Sometimes I go out at around 8pm at this time of year and I hammer myself for a hour or two. The post exercise buzz is brilliant and the beer I have when I get back tastes so much sweeter. Plus it builds my fitness, which makes more relaxing rides easier.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 28 May 2020, 9:51am

Hi,
Going back to the OP, he says legs sorry that's calves turned to jelly.
Personally I wouldn't have thought that would be the first thing I would feel from being unfit.
Anyway in my diagram that's a link
1A595A0B-C1E5-4C4B-8C05-A948A1AE9709.png

When I am fitter then It's the blue one, but I tend to use the green one quite a lot.
The reason for using straight arms is that if you have to do a long hill or do this for any length of time and your arms are bent, your legs will be taking the whole of your body weight all the time and your legs will collapse.
Using the green option means that you can probably do this almost in definitely if you get your weight onto your arms.
But with the green option you definitely have to use a slow cadence, too fast a cadence means your legs will simply clonk, I also tend to lock my legs too, that is you straighten your leg and let the weight drop onto the pedal near the end.
But I am talking about hard-core pressing up the hill, not your normal climbing at all, Training bike weighs half a hundredweight, you have two options that is to throw yourself around on the bike or straight in your arms and lock your legs to get up a hill.
I'm not sure about the term honking I think it's a derogatory one is it, Climbing is what is normally used as the term I think.
Certainly people I meet I've never mentioned either climbing or honking.
so the blue option is for very fit to people and for people probably racing, the green option is what I tend to do a lot but only because my cadence climbing hills with heavy bikes and very low cadence means that suits me just fine.
But slow cadence like sort of 30 or less requires very sturdy legs if you intend to do it with a heavy bike up the long hill.
Just like to say the green option, my back would not be bent it would be perfectly straight along with my arms being pretty much straight most of the time.
Of course you can only do this if you get your weight forward on the bike without drop handlebars or bar extensions you will find it almost impossible.
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thatsnotmyname
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby thatsnotmyname » 28 May 2020, 10:03am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:I'm not sure about the term honking I think it's a derogatory one is it, Climbing is what is normally used as the term I think.
Certainly people I meet I've never mentioned either climbing or honking.


It's not a 'derogatory' term - it's just a word used to describe riding out of the saddle, usually while making a higher effort level than usual. It's not specific to climbing either.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 28 May 2020, 10:59am

Hi,
So Because I don't hear the term is very often because I cycle alone.
Climbing is simply going uphill.
Climbing can be done in or out of the saddle.
Honking Is the English term for climbing out of the saddle.
http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Arti ... onking.htm
I went looking and found the same article that I posted further up post.
Pedaling in circles specifically I'm not sure what that really means I think people are trying to get to Technical there.
Any attempt to consciencely (Think about what you're doing) to me is unnatural it only leads to pain and stress.
Natural Ankling is the body's way of naturally moving the foot as you would if you were walking or running.
In my opinion any attempt to force this means that you know end up with problems with your knees in the way of pain.

http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Arti ... 0Notes.htm
In this page the author goes on to describe in detail different techniques.
I can't agree with most of what he says I think basically he's just examining different cycling styles and even the pros have varying styles but achieve the same thing, no different from someone walking you can identify people by the way they walk quite easily.
To me there is nothing natural about thinking about what you are doing with your feet when you are cycling.
interestingly that when I was fitter a few years ago I was struggling to maintain 350 W on the turbo, I found that dropping my heels slightly for say 10 seconds maintained my power output by relieving a bit of stress, the pain comes back but you can carry on otherwise I was faultering.
I.E. I was dropping to 330 watts , Dropping my heels brought me back to 350, like I said it's only momentarily to relieve the stress to be able to carry on.
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby Vorpal » 28 May 2020, 4:33pm

thatsnotmyname wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:I'm not sure about the term honking I think it's a derogatory one is it, Climbing is what is normally used as the term I think.
Certainly people I meet I've never mentioned either climbing or honking.


It's not a 'derogatory' term - it's just a word used to describe riding out of the saddle, usually while making a higher effort level than usual. It's not specific to climbing either.

In the US, honking is to ride so hard you throw up, while climbing out of the saddle is 'danceuse', which I think is the French word.

You don't want to know about bonking ;)
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Re: Unable to honk

Postby thatsnotmyname » 28 May 2020, 8:12pm

Vorpal wrote:In the US, honking is to ride so hard you throw up, while climbing out of the saddle is 'danceuse', which I think is the French word.

You don't want to know about bonking ;)


'Two nations separated by a common language..' ;)