how can I fix my back pain?

[Vorpal]

That sounds bad, is your pain in the same area? In terms of a weakness from an industrial accident. I did have quite a bad car accident 5 years ago, I walked away fine from it but the airbags went off and I had back and shoulder pain for a couple of weeks afterwards (some people said that was whiplash, no idea I was at fault so I didn't go to the GP, just waited till it went away).

Hopefully I can get to the bottom of this because I really do love cycling, it is just forcing me to stop!

Have you discussed the previous injury with your GP? Untreated whiplash can result in problems years after the injury. It's one of the reasons it is taken so seriously when it occurs. Even though the physio didn't find anything, it's possible , even likely, that the previous injury is causing the problems you have now.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
To be honest I wasn't sure where in the back you were talking about.
shoulders and neck, I normally get pain here standing and bending over doing work on a bench.
This is very common.
Physiotherapy specifically isolates place where you might have a weakness.
Just going to the gym or even doing lots of exercise might not solve the problem it never did with me.
To give you an example I used to do a lot of walking with camping gear on my back, typically I will do between 30 miles plus and the maximum 46 miles in one day.
I had little or no problem doing the exercise but, when not walking with boots I would sprain my ankle often like in my lifetime probably 50 times!
You have to do those particular exercises for the problem, later in life I was diagnosed with unstable ankles by a chiropodist, as soon as I started doing specific exercises I no longer sprained my ankle even if I roll it it doesn't go right over, do you understand what I'm talking about now.
Once a physiotherapist has isolated identified diagnosed where the weaknesses you have, you do those particular exercises for the problem, Lifting a car might not help at all with that particular area, even though you might think it might.
If you are doing specific exercises for this area did you tell the Physiotherapist that you were also pulling weights et cetera in the gym?
The pain in this area you are talking about also used to get me when I was riding motorcycles specifically off road using my shoulders mostly.

That position you have on the bike at the moment will only exacerbate pain between the shoulder blades.
But the pain you have if you get it when walking and jogging needs to be sorted first, don't ride a bike with that position again.

[531colin]

That is an excellent photo, Colin. How was it taken?

It was taken by this guy who knows what he is doing https://www.johnmanktelowphotography.co.uk/
We had been doing stuff like this
_DSC0646 by 531colin, on Flickr
and left it a bit late to move somewhere else. As you can see the light was going, and suddenly there was a bit of colour in the sky; John jumped in the ditch with the camera and set up a couple of huge flashes on the road. So the photo is taken against the natural light but with "fill in" flash which picks up the branding on the wheels and the reflectives on my top.
The only snag is that it looks like there are 2 superimposed images, but I assure you there isn't...I was there on all occasions!

[531colin]

SPARKO, you are clearly injured.
The general advice is don't do anything that hurts; get the injury treated and then you can slowly and gently get back to normal activities.
There is nobody on earth who can diagnose your injury via the internet, or describe your ideal riding position, while you are suffering from an unknown injury.
Once your injury is healed, you should be able to follow "normal" advice about riding position.
For now, I think you should sling the bike and the running shoes in the back of the garage and forget about them; concentrate on getting your injury diagnosed and treated; if you can walk without pain then that's what you should do, for exercise and importantly for escaping from lockdown.

[Antbrewer]

Hi SparkO
Me again.
I did say in my first post that you have opened up a can of worms. Well you have.
Firstly it shows that the forum is here to 'help and offer ''advice'' where it can. It is interesting to see how the story develops as more questions are asked.
I am concerned that (if I understand what you have said) that you have been to the GP and or physio 3 times and you are still suffering with no clear diagnosis or reason for your pain. I appreciate that xrays and scans might not be the first option for some patients when they present initially at the surgery. However they should be seriously considered and expected when the reason for the pain could be an underlying cause. That is what they are there for. A noninvasive tool to diagnose conditions and explore the anatomy. Any GP should want to find the problem though they all differ on their approach. Clearly your GP at this stage hasn't the answer so therefore further examinations are needed.
You should continue with the GP and ask to be referred. After all the GP surgery is a referral service if they cannot fix the problem. (With comments like that this could run and run!)

Spinal pain is very hard to live with and as a young man you must address this.
Anthony

[al_yrpal]

SparkO, have you got Osteoporosis and has this lead to one or more cracked vertebrae? Can only be detected with xrays or similar and the pain can occur in unexpected places. Bone density scan an xray can rule it out. My wife had osteoporosis and 3 cracked vertebrae, the GPs were useless, likewise the Physios. It wasnt until I paid privately for a scan we found out! Useless NHS in this case...

Al

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
I have the advantage of being in intensive care and also being in a room full of ageing people who have undergone operations to cure blood circulation.
I have seen much worse in hospital too.
out of all the consultants surgeons Anaesthetist nurses doctors porters et cetera et cetera I have met there are only a few I regard as grossly incompetent.
In general they are there to do a pretty good job.
And we know there are stories of things that have been missed even people dying because of this.
But I certainly wouldn't dismiss every person in the medical profession.
But I can understand that a personal disappointment by a medical person would make you slightly biased.

we are just fortunate we have a free NHS.
I have probably seen at least 20 different physiotherapists over my lifetime, if you are honest and truthful with what's wrong with you it doesn't take them very long to find out where your weakness lies.
Good luck.

[spark0]

Hi,
I have the advantage of being in intensive care and also being in a room full of ageing people who have undergone operations to cure blood circulation.
I have seen much worse in hospital too.
out of all the consultants surgeons Anaesthetist nurses doctors porters et cetera et cetera I have met there are only a few I regard as grossly incompetent.
In general they are there to do a pretty good job.
And we know there are stories of things that have been missed even people dying because of this.
But I certainly wouldn't dismiss every person in the medical profession.
But I can understand that a personal disappointment by a medical person would make you slightly biased.

we are just fortunate we have a free NHS.
I have probably seen at least 20 different physiotherapists over my lifetime, if you are honest and truthful with what's wrong with you it doesn't take them very long to find out where your weakness lies.
Good luck.

Hi, just point. I am absolutely NOT bagging on the NHS or the people involved in any way shape or fashion. I personally didn't see any benefit and I tried my absolute hardest to explain the situation, making sure to the exercises and following with appointments. Again, i don't know which comment of mine made you think I am saying the NHS is bad. I was simply saying I did not get the problem fixed when I went to them.

SparkO, have you got Osteoporosis and has this lead to one or more cracked vertebrae? Can only be detected with xrays or similar and the pain can occur in unexpected places. Bone density scan an xray can rule it out. My wife had osteoporosis and 3 cracked vertebrae, the GPs were useless, likewise the Physios. It wasnt until I paid privately for a scan we found out! Useless NHS in this case...

Al

Hi Al, thank you for the comment, after googling Osteoporosis I can categorically say with absolute certainty I do not have it. It sounds debilitating! I don't get cracked bones with any more frequency than anyone else. (the occasional unecessary sprained ankle but that is a mobility Issue I believe). I would like to do a bone density x-ray one day though, just out of curiosity more than anything so I can figure out if I need to do something about it to improve it.

SPARKO, you are clearly injured.
The general advice is don't do anything that hurts; get the injury treated and then you can slowly and gently get back to normal activities.
There is nobody on earth who can diagnose your injury via the internet, or describe your ideal riding position, while you are suffering from an unknown injury.
Once your injury is healed, you should be able to follow "normal" advice about riding position.
For now, I think you should sling the bike and the running shoes in the back of the garage and forget about them; concentrate on getting your injury diagnosed and treated; if you can walk without pain then that's what you should do, for exercise and importantly for escaping from lockdown.

I have slung the bike now, just pointless to do more damage unecessarily no matter how much I enjoy cycling. I will have to wait till after this lockdown is over to get back to my GP and see if I can get to the bottom of this. I will try to ask if he can send me to an osteotherapist rather than a physiotherapist.

Hi SparkO
Me again.
I did say in my first post that you have opened up a can of worms. Well you have.
Firstly it shows that the forum is here to 'help and offer ''advice'' where it can. It is interesting to see how the story develops as more questions are asked.
I am concerned that (if I understand what you have said) that you have been to the GP and or physio 3 times and you are still suffering with no clear diagnosis or reason for your pain. I appreciate that xrays and scans might not be the first option for some patients when they present initially at the surgery. However they should be seriously considered and expected when the reason for the pain could be an underlying cause. That is what they are there for. A noninvasive tool to diagnose conditions and explore the anatomy. Any GP should want to find the problem though they all differ on their approach. Clearly your GP at this stage hasn't the answer so therefore further examinations are needed.
You should continue with the GP and ask to be referred. After all the GP surgery is a referral service if they cannot fix the problem. (With comments like that this could run and run!)

Spinal pain is very hard to live with and as a young man you must address this.
Anthony

I know Anthony! This might be an ongoing thing. I really want to get this sorted sooner rather than later. Just incredibly frustrating situation because it sounds like I'm whining to someone on the outside.

[Antbrewer]

There are more worms than ever now.
I certainly didn't feel you were slating the health profession or the NHS for one minute. In my opinion you have just been unlucky that your GP hasn't referred you as yet and the unfortunate episode with the physio hasn't helped in any way.

To Natural Ankling
I do take exception to reading your sweeping statements. Having spent my working life in the NHS I speak with a certain understanding. In such a massive organization there are bound to be a minuscule number of staff that might not perform at their best all the time. Yes there have been cases well publicized which have been terrible. These are few and far between and do not warrant such comments....

out of all the consultants surgeons Anaesthetist nurses doctors porters et cetera et cetera I have met there are only a few I regard as grossly incompetent.
In general they are there to do a pretty good job.

I am sorry Natural Ankling but I find this comment quite ridiculous and bordering on the offensive. You might have had an unfortunate experience from the NHS or someone close to you and that is most regrettable but they are all highly trained staff trying their best sometimes in extremely very difficult circumstances. '' They do a pretty good job''? That is a terrible thing to say.
It is reassuring to hear that you ''wouldn't dismiss every person in the medical profession''!

I may come across a little prickly here but I am sure this isn't any help to SparkO with his his back issues.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Yes I said they do a pretty good job that means yes they are good at what they do and highly trained for sure I put my life in their hands and I trust them.
I've only had two bad experiences and those experiences were not life threatening in any way I had the option of going somewhere else or et cetera et cetera.
I have certainly had my money's worth out of the NHS and without them I couldn't wouldn't be alive today.
I'm sorry if I offended anybody that was not my intention I was just pointing out that nobody is perfect.
Spending two weeks in intensive care is definitely a life changing experience for sure.
I see I'm going to have to go and re-read my post offended so many people and see where I went wrong.
I've posted straight after "Al" And I thought My post was in contrast to his.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
Right, so I think I know where I offended people here.

"Pretty good job "
To me that's very good it's right near the top for sure.
But I realise some peoples interpretation means it's just okay.

I bought a brand-new motorbike one day and the security guard said to me how's the motorbike?
I said it's okay......
He said its bloody fantastic, well it would be because Honda put everything onto that bike they could squeeze in and it also won bike of the year.

So my okay, is everybody else is bloody fantastic.
So in future I won't use that saying as obviously most peoples interpretations of it is somewhat may be a sarcastic slant.

It's a bit like "SIC" I never use that at all, it's a modern thing isn't it.

OK

[Antbrewer]

Hi Natural Ankling
Thanks for your reply. I think it is ''Okay''.
I have a Honda car ( I am not a motor bike person at all) and I think that is 'bloody fantastic' too.
Maybe we are on the same page?
Cheers

SparkO
Take care and all the best and let us know ( if you want to ) how you get on.
Anthony

[spark0]

Anthony, Natural Ankler... I am glad we're all friends again!

In terms of keeping this post updated. I will when I figure out what is going on with my bike. After trying your suggestions and messing around with a few different things myself I can safely say it isn't a bike issue. The bike frame size is correct for my height as per charts online. I will have to go back to my GP and ask to see a Osteotherapist rather than a Physiotherapist as I feel like they may have more knowledge about any underlying conditions I could have.

When I do find a solution that works I will update this post in case someone on the internet searches google for a similar issue.

Thanks everyone for giving it your best shot, my first foray into this community and I can say I am happy with the responses!

[ndmbike]

Hey Spark0,
I feel for you - literally.
I've had back issues since 1993 and they are always there in the background. Sometimes just a niggle other times shocking.
I've seen (at the last count) 26 people ranging from sports masseurs to a back surgeon who now practises as a musculoskeletal specialist.
A few of them were/are fantastic.
Try to find out if it is muscular or not. If muscular, the list below may help.

Here are a few things that have helped me starting with the most recent...

A tennis ball to lie on to press on the 'trigger points' even though I don't believe the guff I've read about them.
Gentle movement that encourages blood flow to the muscles that have gone into spasm - and stretching.
Bob and Brad - Physical therapists on the internet.
A really good physio - the practice I go to is used by the city's rugby club so I know they are used to getting people back to doing what they love.
A sports masseuse - who also beats up the local rugby club players.
Alexander technique - again it depends on the teacher - I spent £300 on someone who made things worse and then had a single session with someone who left me pain free for two months.
A good drug regime - I use NSAIDS, codeine and even alcohol - I've been told cannabis is a good muscle relaxant but I don't fancy that. I was prescribed benzos but left them in the box.
Hot or cold packs.
The BMA back pain book and Sarah Keys Back Pain Bible.
Acupuncture - seems to easily relax the muscular knots.

I hope you get some relief. Obviously we can't see physios at the moment for treatment but as soon as I can I shall be making an appointment as my back is playing up.
The biggest predictor for future back pain is back pain in the past (I heard a back specialist say this on the radio and believe it). You are likely to be in it for the long run. Keep trying different ways of treating yourself. Keep mobile. Eventually you will get better (it is likely to recur but you will know what to do).

[Antbrewer]

Hi SparkO
Yep we are all friendly 'worms' here. No problem with that.

I don't want the last word in a conversation but there is just a point that I feel I must make.
As I said previously I have quite considerable experience on both sides of the fence in this issue. Working in the imaging world of the NHS and various public health bodies and then to my personal cost ending up with two cervical spine ops with associated spinal fusions in my neck and then years later having a large spinal tumour in my lumbar spine.
My simple point SparkO is that had I not had a CT scan on my neck in the early 90s I would have been paralysed due to the damaged discs in the actual spinal canal following a manipulation under a GA .
Then 15 yrs later after physio ( referred by the GP) on my lumbar spine having had pain for years and years and thinking all was muscular my GP insisted I had an MIR scan even though my plain Xrays just prior to this time showed no unreasonable abnormality for my age. The MIR scans showed the massive tumour. Again this scan was a life saver. Further physio would have been catastrophic. With the tumour sitting around the cord it was only a matter of time before infiltration and beyond? I wouldn't be here.

My point is after you have had no relief for all this time I wouldn't have anything done to me 'blind'. This is what the imaging techniques we have these days are for. I certainly wouldn't have anyone pulling and manipulating my spine without knowing fully what the underlying cause of the pain and discomfort was. A clinical diagnosis is imperative before any treatment can be recommended. More damage could be the result.
I am not suggesting you are likely to have anything so serious as I have been unlucky to have had but there are a myriad of causes of back pain.

You probably feel I am harping on about this. Well I guess I am but it is something I do feel very strongly about. I guess I am a traditionalist in believing the wisdom of the day. It was actually suggested to me by a friend that I could take herbal remedies instead of chemotherapy and radiotherapy for my cancer treatment. Hmmmm ? You can probably guess which option I went for. But that's just me.

Anyway I have said my bit so to speak SparkO . I really wish you well in your journey.
All the best