artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

windmiller
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby windmiller » 10 Jun 2020, 3:57pm

Peter F wrote:
windmiller wrote:
Peter F wrote:Dentists aren't involved in the search for a cure for tooth decay, in the same way that your GP isn't involved in the search for a cure for tonsillitis.


Exactly, they only treat symptoms, sometimes they offer mumbled often dubious preventative advice that they know the patient won't or can't adhere to.

Researchers who are or who are funded by big pharma have no incentive to discover real cures because that would damage the cash cow, which needs to milk and maintain medical victims .


Dentists give clear advice on good oral hygiene. Mine even told me that there was no value in me going every year for a check up and to come back in two years.

The "Big pharma" comment is just conspiracy stuff with zero basis in fact. Careful, your tinfoil hat is slipping.


In my experience some dentists' give good advice, most give none or just grumble cynical ramblings from the nearest leaflet. If you seriously think that big pharma are on the side of the angels, well good luck with that.

A dentist once told me that there was no need to see me again for a year, I ignored his advice and came back 6 months later. Never heard of a 2 year gap in check ups seems neglectful at best, maybe if the lockdown comes back it might end up normal procedure. Even if I had teeth like a dinosaur (maybe you do) I would never wait more than a year at most inbetween check ups. A filling can turn into a root canal or worse in less than 6 months. Perhaps your dentist is playing the long game with you.

Until about 10 years ago I seemed to be needing dental work every year or so, despite brushing religiously 3 sometimes 4 times a day, flossing and mouthwashing like a drowning wretch. Then I took matters into my own hands, with xylitol, vitamin K2, fish 3 times a week and cut sugar by about 50%. I still consume too much sugar.
Never needed any dental work since not even a descale since I have no plaque. Gum pockets healed and even a very small patch of decay which raised the dentist's eyebrow . He told me to keep on doing what I was doing. I told him what I was doing. he never said a word, that says it all to me.

So I will keep my tin hat on and you can keep on your blindfold and earplugs and we can both stay happy :lol:
Last edited by windmiller on 10 Jun 2020, 9:56pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jdsk
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Jdsk » 10 Jun 2020, 9:25pm

Commentary on the many Cochrane Reviews related to routine dental care, with links:
"Routine dental care: does the evidence give us something to smile about?"
https://www.cochrane.org/news/routine-dental-care-does-evidence-give-us-something-smile-about

It's utterly depressing that we don't have high quality evidence on such an important subject.

Jonathan

Biospace
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Biospace » 10 Jun 2020, 9:29pm

Brucey, I'd apply the same logic and good sense you apply to what you put inside your body as you do your bikes.

If you drink something with Aspartame or some other nasty in it then you feel off it for a few days, and doing the same happens again, it should be fairly clear what your body makes of the stuff.

In a world where official knowledge and advice is increasingly leading our lives, it's sometimes difficult to ignore this and trust your own body's response - be glad your body is telling you so clearly there's a problem, and that you made the link.

Tangled Metal
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Tangled Metal » 10 Jun 2020, 10:46pm

Jdsk wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:It (migraine) affects about 6 million people in the UK with 25 million lost days in school and work. Third most common disease in the world and conservatively costing £3.6 billion per year in the UK due to medical costs and lost productivity. I've seen a figure saying globally 2,9% of all years of life lost to disability are from migraines. Seventh most disabling disease globally.

Global Burden of Disease Study 2016
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5605509/

Jonathan

Thanks for that. 2016 it was 6th highest YLD. I got my info from one of the migraine charities so whilst potentially a biased source they did give a summary of the data relating to migraines but no sources. I bet they know the sources to use such as the one you linked to and update their website information accordingly, but not sure how often they do it. I certainly noticed their website had more information than 6 months earlier when I last checked it out. Hopefully that meant they used the latest data sources when they did update it.

Whatever the exact figures it's not a minor condition. However it was not that long ago they didn't have any specific drug development for the condition. I believe a drug developed specifically for migraine was developed and widely used outside of UK. When it was released NICE ruled that it wasn't cost effective so not approved under the NHS treatment protocols. Recently it's changed and you can get the drug under NHS after strict jumping through hoops. Those hoops can take a very long time to pass through. Basically every other treatment has to have been tried. Then you need to meet high frequency of attacks criteria. All for a drug that's actually not very expensive I believe. Plus it really works well. Migraine forums and American sufferers who got put on it describe it as a lifesaver. People with 18 months of continuous migraine such that they've not left their house for over a year are suddenly able to start leaving their house.

I'm fortunate in that my attacks are either very minor so I can function or severe but short in duration. I'm probably on minor attacks every week but severe ones in clusters every two or three months. Either way I can probably guarantee migraines by drinking rybena or Pepsi Max or diet pepsi but won't get it with full sugar Pepsi. AFAIK full sugar and diet coca cola are basically the same recipe except for the source of sweetness. I can probably blind taste check which version of coca cola is which by drinking it and waiting for a migraine symptom to appear. My friend had detected formula changes in sweeteners for foods and drinks by getting migraines. I do not believe we are alone in this super power!! :lol:

Jdsk
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Jdsk » 10 Jun 2020, 10:58pm

Tangled Metal wrote:However it was not that long ago they didn't have any specific drug development for the condition. I believe a drug developed specifically for migraine was developed and widely used outside of UK. When it was released NICE ruled that it wasn't cost effective so not approved under the NHS treatment protocols. Recently it's changed and you can get the drug under NHS after strict jumping through hoops. Those hoops can take a very long time to pass through. Basically every other treatment has to have been tried. Then you need to meet high frequency of attacks criteria. All for a drug that's actually not very expensive I believe. Plus it really works well. Migraine forums and American sufferers who got put on it describe it as a lifesaver. People with 18 months of continuous migraine such that they've not left their house for over a year are suddenly able to start leaving their house.

I can't align that with a particular drug, but are you thinking of triptans, and specifically sumatriptan?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triptan

Jonathan

PS: It doesn't matter if a drug was developed for a specific use or not. What matters is if it's effective.

Tangled Metal
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Tangled Metal » 10 Jun 2020, 11:04pm

As far as dental care goes, I'm a tooth creek!! I've never had any filling sand apart from baby teeth pulled, gum cut to let adult teeth out and teeth straightening I've had no treatment. Nothing since I was a kid too. I'm not on any dentist's list since the last NHS dentist kicked me off their list water 18 months without a visit to them. Before I signed up with them I used to join a new dentist practise every 7 years. Always find my visit takes an hour in the waiting room at best and 2 minutes with the dentist at the longest. Typically 60 minutes wait per minute with the dentist.

Sorry if that's gloating. I don't believe in the good teeth gene but I've lived in an area that added fluoride to water from childhood, all my life AFAIK. I've had a mother with bad teeth from a childhood being fed sweets who made us brush our teeth well, twice a day as a kid (I have never been that good as an adult). I have never had a very sweet tooth so whilst the rest of the family ate sweets on journeys I didn't growing up. Easter eggs lasted a month with me, milky way bars left in winter coats until autumn arrives with an unexpected find in the pocket, etc.

I do think what you eat as well as how you care for teeth is important for dental care. In my case it's my habits in food that helps what is possibly a good set of teeth and gums given to me by freek if nature perhaps but more likely other reasons.

BTW I read something once that said over 75% of the benefits of brushing teeth come from the brushing and the toothpaste used has a minor role. No idea if true but I do now pay more for better toothpaste.

Tangled Metal
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Tangled Metal » 10 Jun 2020, 11:21pm

Jdsk wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:However it was not that long ago they didn't have any specific drug development for the condition. I believe a drug developed specifically for migraine was developed and widely used outside of UK. When it was released NICE ruled that it wasn't cost effective so not approved under the NHS treatment protocols. Recently it's changed and you can get the drug under NHS after strict jumping through hoops. Those hoops can take a very long time to pass through. Basically every other treatment has to have been tried. Then you need to meet high frequency of attacks criteria. All for a drug that's actually not very expensive I believe. Plus it really works well. Migraine forums and American sufferers who got put on it describe it as a lifesaver. People with 18 months of continuous migraine such that they've not left their house for over a year are suddenly able to start leaving their house.

I can't align that with a particular drug, but are you thinking of triptans, and specifically sumatriptan?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triptan

Jonathan

PS: It doesn't matter if a drug was developed for a specific use or not. What matters is if it's effective.

No I'm thinking of aimovig CGRP antagonists. A game changer.

AIUI triptans were developed for other things. They really don't work that well. I use Rizatriptan in orodispersible tablet (put it on your tongue and let it dissolve and absorb quickly in the mouth. Apparently my pain consultant said it was the only treatment with some evidence supporting quicker absorption into your blood. Before I had a wafer version of a triptan which never got into my blood quick enough and before that a nasal spray triptan. At the time of each new triptan prescription the doctor told me it's quicker into the blood. Each time I'm very lucky if it helps me.

Right now I could get propranolol and other drugs developed for other conditions. Generally a drug that affects blood vessels get tested for migraine treatment I believe. I could get beta blockers and certain anti depressants. I've heard bad things about both classes of drugs in the versions that are approved for migraines. One from the pain consultant, safety warnings given, also that beta blocker a consultant friend of a friend who was just off it for her migraines gave me her story of using it. I'm naturally worried about taking old generations of anti depressants. Possibly a good way of prolonging sales in our of favour drugs???

Whatever happens I've got to have tried both classes of drugs before I can go to another pain or headache consultant. Without seeing the consultant I can't stand a chance in hell of getting aimovig. Do I drop my concerns to take drugs I don't feel happy taking just in case I can go through them without problems and get to the right drug for migraine treatment??

Tangled Metal
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Tangled Metal » 10 Jun 2020, 11:28pm

PS the beta blockers and anti depressants work for some but are not able to prevent the attacks even remotely as well as the CGRP antagonists developed to treat migraines. AIUI it's based on research into a specific feature of migraines. Long time coming and I hope more treatments like it come too. Perhaps some that I can get.

st599_uk
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby st599_uk » 11 Jun 2020, 11:15am

Brucey wrote:So on the last point the only thing that was unusual for me was the lime cordial with the artificial sweeteners in it. I have not had any for the last week. So could it have been that? I looked up the side effects of some of these sweeteners and there is more than one report of fibromyalgia being associated with these sweeteners. Has anyone else had anything similar happen?

cheers


I find that since cutting back on my carb intake, that I have to be careful with artificial sweeteners.

They trick the body in to thinking you've had sugar, you then get a boost of insulin and it makes the post-exercise sugar low significantly worse.

So I can have a diet coke with a meal or snack, but if I have one without then I get twitchy muscles, aches and a mushy head.
A novice learning...
“the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”

xerxes
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby xerxes » 11 Jun 2020, 3:46pm

Jdsk wrote:
xerxes wrote:I find it very annoying that it now seems to be impossible to buy, say, a bottle of orange squash without artificial sweeteners. It's the nanny state.

It's a tough problem.

Along with many other people I'm very concerned about the dominance of the food industry, the prevalence of obesity, and the importance of preventative healthcare as well as the management of illness.

And when we finally manage to make a coordinated change based on the evidence of what works... "it's the nanny state".

Jonathan

Well, it pre-supposes that people are not capable of making sensible lifestyle choices. Which, I'll grant you, may be the case for many people.

Jdsk
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Jdsk » 11 Jun 2020, 5:38pm

st599_uk wrote:They (artificial sweeteners) trick the body in to thinking you've had sugar, you then get a boost of insulin and it makes the post-exercise sugar low significantly worse.

So I can have a diet coke with a meal or snack, but if I have one without then I get twitchy muscles, aches and a mushy head.

As above, any evidence for that effect on insulin release, please?

Thanks

Jonathan

Tangled Metal
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Jun 2020, 9:39pm

The reformulation of popular food and drink products in line with nutritional advice on sugar is probably a good idea for those unwilling or unable to control sugar intake otherwise. But it does take away choice for those who can. Is that nanny state or for the greater good?

Sugar tax might well be one rear but it's a blunt tool. It'll force use of artificial sweeteners. Rybena had a no no added sugar formulation but people still bought standard. So they changed the standard to be lower in sugar. There is now no longer choice indeed it's taken away the choice of cordial for me. None of the cheaper ones I can drink. I have to buy the expensive ones like elderflower cordial for over three times the price of rybena. It's one of only a few sold without artificial sweeteners now. I'm doing what people with major allergies for certain foods used to have to do before allergen labelling became law. I'm reading labels everywhere. It's really not clear.

Personally I wonder if there's not a better way to reduce sugar. Formulation with less sugar but just as sweet as original, would it not be better to universally dial down sweetness without adding sweeteners to replace sugar? Switch the nation off sugar and sweeteners?

jimlews
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby jimlews » 12 Jun 2020, 9:48am

Much erudite discussion here, but largely, not addressing the problem outlined in the OP.

It seems to me, as a non-medical layman, that the way to ascertain whether the symptoms described by Brucey are caused by artificial sweeteners or by some other cause, is to stop drinking that lime cordial (and anything else that may contain the suspect artificial sweeteners) for a month or two then glug some more and see if the symptoms recur.

During that 'interregnum', I would suggest substituting cold pressed apple juice (often sold as "cloudy") as a suitable and nutritious substitute. I would carry one bottle of that and one bottle of plain water.

Jdsk
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Jdsk » 12 Jun 2020, 10:01am

jimlews wrote:It seems to me, as a non-medical layman, that the way to ascertain whether the symptoms described by Brucey are caused by artificial sweeteners or by some other cause, is to stop drinking that lime cordial (and anything else that may contain the suspect artificial sweeteners) for a month or two then glug some more and see if the symptoms recur.

Agree in principle, but that's a lot harder in practice* than it is in theory. That's because biological systems are typically very complex and you have to control for many other factors.

That's why I recommended an N of 1 trial in the first response to Brucey's question.
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=138305

Jonathan

* Anyone who has been through an exclusion diet work-up themselves or with a child will recognise this.

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Trigger
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Re: artificial sweeteners; are they poison?

Postby Trigger » 13 Jun 2020, 12:02pm

You might want to check the labels of most of your favourite drinks, since the sugar tax pretty much all of them have been reformulated to reduce the sugar and replace with sweetener.

I used to really enjoy the occasional Old Jamaica Ginger Beer, but since they've took most of the sugar out it tastes rank.