supplements

Jdsk
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Re: supplements

Postby Jdsk » 19 Jun 2020, 2:44pm

NUKe wrote:So quote some real science then that says we should take these.

Current NICE guidance on prevention, with citations
https://cks.nice.org.uk/vitamin-d-deficiency-in-adults-treatment-and-prevention#!scenario:1

SACN 2016 report, with citations
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sacn-vitamin-d-and-health-report

Jonathan
Last edited by Jdsk on 19 Jun 2020, 2:47pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jdsk
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Re: supplements

Postby Jdsk » 19 Jun 2020, 2:46pm

NUKe wrote: if I don’t suffer from Vitamin D deficiency why should I take it as a supplement ?

Almost every adult who is vitamin D deficient doesn't know that they are until an unhealthy bone breaks.

Jonathan

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Audax67
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Re: supplements

Postby Audax67 » 19 Jun 2020, 3:27pm

Jdsk wrote: But it's wiser to supplement vitamin D than not.


NB vitamin D as absorbed by pill or from sunlight must undergo a couple of transformations in the body before it becomes active. Fructose can interfere with this process and transform it into an inactive form. When you eat fruit, though, the fructose remains bound up in the fibre and isn't an issue, but in dried fruit it's released. Likewise, high-fructose corn syrup (alias glucose-fructose and various other innocent-sounding appellations) can do the dirty.

I'd expect that when you're riding any fructose you consume will be burnt before it can do any damage, but not the rest of the time.
Have we got time for another cuppa?

Jdsk
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Re: supplements

Postby Jdsk » 19 Jun 2020, 3:30pm

Audax67 wrote:NB vitamin D as absorbed by pill or from sunlight must undergo a couple of transformations in the body before it becomes active.

Yes.
Audax67 wrote:Fructose can interfere with this process and transform it into an inactive form. When you eat fruit, though, the fructose remains bound up in the fibre and isn't an issue, but in dried fruit it's released. Likewise, high-fructose corn syrup (alias glucose-fructose and various other innocent-sounding appellations) can do the dirty.

I'd expect that when you're riding any fructose you consume will be burnt before it can do any damage, but not the rest of the time.

What's the evidence that that effect occurs in practice, please?

Thanks

Jonathan

Tangled Metal
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Re: supplements

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2020, 3:52pm

Never broken a bone except when a boulder fell from height onto my hand. I've had plenty of spills that often result in breaks with other people. What are the chances I need vit D supplements?

If they're if benefit then would it not be good to find those for whom it's a needed supplement? If it's a problem then would it not be cost effective to have a prevention or at least find those in need of supplements? The NHS does not do widespread testing if vit D deficiencies does that mean supplements and deficiencies aren't a priority for the nation's health.

Jdsk
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Re: supplements

Postby Jdsk » 19 Jun 2020, 4:05pm

It certainly is possible to try and approach the problem by analysing, identifying and treating.

But that analysis and interpretation is very, very tricky: when to collect the specimen, what to measure, what method of measurement (and does it agree with any other), what threshold to use in the decision to treat etc.

It's also much more expensive to do it that way. And it isn't going to work at a population level.

That's why the current national policy was adopted.

Jonathan

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Re: supplements

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2020, 4:16pm

Jdsk wrote:It certainly is possible to approach the problem by analysing, identifying and treating.

But that analysis and interpretation is very, very tricky: when to collect the specimen, what to measure, what method of measurement (and does it agree with any other), what threshold to use in the decision to treat etc.

It's also much more expensive to do it that way. And it isn't going to work at a population level.

That's why the current national policy was adopted.

Jonathan

What does this mean? Do you mean that testing and treating with supplements isn't going to work in the population? Is that saying supplements don't work for everyone even if they indicate it's needed?

Jdsk
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Re: supplements

Postby Jdsk » 19 Jun 2020, 4:22pm

That meant that a policy of testing, identifying and treating isn't going to work at a population level.

Of course it's exactly what happens in reaction to clinical events such as fractures, and what some doctors do with some individuals apart from that, and what some individuals do by themselves.

It's nothing to do with supplements not working for everyone. (There are some specific clinical conditions in which a different form of Vitamin D are needed.)

Jonathan

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Re: supplements

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jun 2020, 4:35pm

I must admit that I occasionally buy a wide spectrum of supplements such as centrum for men, usually only when I see it cheap. Just to see if I can notice any effect. Not scientific but I think I noticed a placebo effect although at the time I was also getting more sleep and had started wearing a fitness tracker again. So likely more to do with better health and fitness awareness.

There's been some reports of certain supplements giving positive effects that I'm interested more in. Magnesium is being studied as potential benefits for migraine reduction or prevention. Only some magnesium supplement types are reported to be better than others. Now if you know anything about that I'll be interested. There's been a whole list of supplements of benefits to sufferers of migraines. I doubt they offer much but like everything it's this weak linkage that sells it for sufferers of conditions like migraine. You're often desperate enough to try anything. A kind of exploitation that I think feeds the supplement industry.

ANTONISH
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Re: supplements

Postby ANTONISH » 20 Jun 2020, 4:18pm

I take a vitamin D supplement - it's been advised by various medical sources on the basis that there are periods in the year when most of the population have less than optimal vit D levels ( as I understand it).
I'm one of those who have not had a broken bone despite having had my share of bike related falls.
I take vit D as a prophylactic because as I am elderly I want to maintain bone strength - I don't know if it's working as I don't have my bone density regularly monitored.
I've also been taking vit B - but I can't recall why :?

Jdsk
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Re: supplements

Postby Jdsk » 20 Jun 2020, 4:33pm

ANTONISH wrote:I take a vitamin D supplement - it's been advised by various medical sources on the basis that there are periods in the year when most of the population have less than optimal vit D levels ( as I understand it).

Yes, that's right.

The data supporting this are cited in an earlier post in this thread.

Jonathan

PS: Nearly there on magnesium and migraine. More soon.

reohn2
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Re: supplements

Postby reohn2 » 20 Jun 2020, 5:07pm

I take Glucosamine & Condriotin which help with my Arthritic joints, and Vitamin D in the winter months.
Someone mentioned broken bones,well err,wrist once,both arms twice,neck of the femur once,ribs a few times,nose once,collarbone once.
Other than that I've a clean sheet :)
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I cycle therefore I am.

Jdsk
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Re: supplements

Postby Jdsk » 20 Jun 2020, 7:35pm

reohn2 wrote:I take Glucosamine & Condriotin which help with my Arthritic joints...

If anyone wants the evidence of efficacy please ask.

Jonathan

ANTONISH
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Re: supplements

Postby ANTONISH » 21 Jun 2020, 10:19am

Jdsk wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I take Glucosamine & Condriotin which help with my Arthritic joints...

If anyone wants the evidence of efficacy please ask.

Jonathan


I did have a period some years ago using this but was unpersuaded of the efficacy - do you know something definitive?

Jdsk
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Re: supplements

Postby Jdsk » 21 Jun 2020, 10:26am