Wrist and hand pain.

bikepacker
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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby bikepacker » 24 Jun 2020, 4:13pm

531colin wrote:If "taking weight off the hands and wrist" really is all you need to do, then just move the saddle back


Colin, I have seen you state this a few times and I hate to disagree with you but I think you are wrong. Over 70 years ago I was taught bike building by a man who had a bike shop in Walsall and he always stated that in order to optimise pedalling the saddle was set in a optimal position and recorded as a measurement using a vertical datum from the centre of the BB. Every bike mechanic I know agrees that this is close to being right. If you are saying because your arms ache you should move your saddle back you are then moving from your optimal position on the bike. If the aching is cause by incorrect positioning of the upper torso then it is the stem that needs to be lengthened or shortened as required. The saddle remains in the same place.

Regarding the OP’s hand problem, I suffer badly with arthritis in my left hand and am constantly trying new methods to help. You have had some good suggestions but it changing gear is a problem, like mine, an alternative is needed. Barcons are good because you can then use full v-brakes with matching levers to give better braking. At the present time I am experimenting with a hybrid method using full vs on the back with a Tektro lever and a friction down tube shifter for the front mech. If I am having a bad hand day, I can still reach through to change the front with my right hand.
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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby djnotts » 24 Jun 2020, 4:29pm

I was using barcons with Salsa Woodchipper 2s for the flare/sweep and V brakes with the right drop bar levers. Shifting certainly much easier than my 105 triple bike and braking better (Vs always superior to calipers IMO/IME).
Changing to risers not made a great difference to wrist. Starting to think as much a question of road shock as position. Most " comfortable" bike at moment seems to be my Brompton - fat tyres if small wheels and a long steerer tube to absorb shock. Super light mtb with quality front bouncers may be next experiment.
And I am lifting hand off the bars for obvious rough surfaces!

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531colin
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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby 531colin » 24 Jun 2020, 5:50pm

bikepacker wrote:…….. in order to optimise pedalling the saddle was set in a optimal position....

I think we can all agree with that.
All that remains is for you to share with us how to do it?
Failing that, have a read of Steve Hogg on saddle setback (remember, he is talking about first cat. racers) https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/ (you can scroll down to "point of balance" if you are impatient).
Have a read of Neil's bike fit on preferential fatigue https://neillsbikefit.com.au/?page_id=268 and also his bit on saddle height and setback, he says (and he is right) that pushing the saddle back recruits the hamstrings, whereas pushing it forward recruits the quads. (saddle height also varies the relative recruitment of the different muscle groups, as does cleat placement)

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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby bikepacker » 24 Jun 2020, 7:02pm

I have many times read the theories of Steve Hogg, Keith Bontrager and others as well as watching many videos. They all seem to have different approaches so the conclusion has to be there is no one answer. Yet you keep telling forum members there is only one answer and that it to move the saddle back. Again, I state this is wrong. Either through a bike fit or trial and error once a cyclist has achieved the optimal saddle position for their pedalling action, then because of changes in physiology maybe due to aging, injury or something else, arms begin to ache, moving the saddle in not the solution.

Also thank you for your lesson in muscle use. Unfortunately, I learned those and more over 60 years ago when I doing intensive training for competitive swimming.
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Trigger
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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby Trigger » 24 Jun 2020, 8:53pm

I also still need to sort this out, on longer rides my hands are taking a right beating, and even though my bars are only a gnats knacker lower than the saddle I also get terrible neck pain from looking ahead whilst riding. After a 66 mile ride yesterday I felt like I'd been beaten up, knocked to the floor and then kicked around the floor for 10 minutes!

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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby Cyril Haearn » 24 Jun 2020, 8:58pm

One could move the bars back, not the saddle
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Paulatic
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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby Paulatic » 24 Jun 2020, 9:07pm

Trigger wrote:I also still need to sort this out, on longer rides my hands are taking a right beating, and even though my bars are only a gnats knacker lower than the saddle I also get terrible neck pain from looking ahead whilst riding. After a 66 mile ride yesterday I felt like I'd been beaten up, knocked to the floor and then kicked around the floor for 10 minutes!

Doesn’t sound too good are you stretched out too far maybe as your bars sound to be high enough.
Beaten and knocked to the floor :lol: are you riding solid tyres :)
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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby Trigger » 24 Jun 2020, 9:18pm

Paulatic wrote:
Trigger wrote:I also still need to sort this out, on longer rides my hands are taking a right beating, and even though my bars are only a gnats knacker lower than the saddle I also get terrible neck pain from looking ahead whilst riding. After a 66 mile ride yesterday I felt like I'd been beaten up, knocked to the floor and then kicked around the floor for 10 minutes!

Doesn’t sound too good are you stretched out too far maybe as your bars sound to be high enough.
Beaten and knocked to the floor :lol: are you riding solid tyres :)


No the opposite, quite wide at medium pressures I would say (32c 60psi front, 70 rear)

I've always struggled, pretty much every ride I've ever ridden over 30 miles I get off and feel like Mike Tyson has knocked 7 bells out of me. I really really envy those who don't have any comfort problems. Cycling for me is a massive battle of wills and I have to psych myself up for almost every ride, which is one of the reasons I prefer riding on the turbo trainer in the house than actually going out, because when I've had enough I can just get of the damn thing.

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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby foxyrider » 24 Jun 2020, 10:21pm

Trigger wrote:
Paulatic wrote:
Trigger wrote:I also still need to sort this out, on longer rides my hands are taking a right beating, and even though my bars are only a gnats knacker lower than the saddle I also get terrible neck pain from looking ahead whilst riding. After a 66 mile ride yesterday I felt like I'd been beaten up, knocked to the floor and then kicked around the floor for 10 minutes!

Doesn’t sound too good are you stretched out too far maybe as your bars sound to be high enough.
Beaten and knocked to the floor :lol: are you riding solid tyres :)


No the opposite, quite wide at medium pressures I would say (32c 60psi front, 70 rear)


There's your problem, you need 25's at 100psi! :lol:

Trigger wrote:I've always struggled, pretty much every ride I've ever ridden over 30 miles I get off and feel like Mike Tyson has knocked 7 bells out of me. I really really envy those who don't have any comfort problems. Cycling for me is a massive battle of wills and I have to psych myself up for almost every ride, which is one of the reasons I prefer riding on the turbo trainer in the house than actually going out, because when I've had enough I can just get of the damn thing.


But seriously, it sounds like you have a significant positioning problem. I'm not saying its what's causing your issues but having the bars set too high can be as bad as too low in terms of comfort as it throws your weight onto your seat which in turn makes sitting on the saddle less comfortable. Reducing your reach will raise your head without moving your weight as much.

This might seem a bit off topic, but how long are your arms, fingertip to fingertip? This can have a significant influence on your comfort if the bars are too high/low, i've learnt this by experience, having got Gibbon arms to match the long legs but a relatively short torso. I don't need a long reach provided the saddle/bar height equation is right, if i go less than about 10cm i get a sore lower back. My touring bike has about twice that and its comfortable enough for repeated full days in the saddle and i'm talking 60/70 miles here.

I wouldn't claim to have found comfort Nirvana but i'll usually have run out of energy long before there are any real comfort issues.
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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby Trigger » 24 Jun 2020, 10:37pm

foxyrider wrote:
But seriously, it sounds like you have a significant positioning problem. I'm not saying its what's causing your issues but having the bars set too high can be as bad as too low in terms of comfort as it throws your weight onto your seat which in turn makes sitting on the saddle less comfortable. Reducing your reach will raise your head without moving your weight as much.

This might seem a bit off topic, but how long are your arms, fingertip to fingertip? This can have a significant influence on your comfort if the bars are too high/low, i've learnt this by experience, having got Gibbon arms to match the long legs but a relatively short torso. I don't need a long reach provided the saddle/bar height equation is right, if i go less than about 10cm i get a sore lower back. My touring bike has about twice that and its comfortable enough for repeated full days in the saddle and i'm talking 60/70 miles here.

I wouldn't claim to have found comfort Nirvana but i'll usually have run out of energy long before there are any real comfort issues.


Arm span is an exact match for my height, 177cm. Ironically saddle comfort isn't one of the areas I have a problem, it's mainly hand, wrist, shoulder/neck and some hip flexor only after longer rides. I feel fit enough to go further if I could bare to stay on the bike long enough, I think someone with a lower threshold for pain than me would probably pack in way before 60 miles.

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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby 531colin » 25 Jun 2020, 1:50pm

bikepacker wrote:I have many times read the theories of Steve Hogg, Keith Bontrager and others as well as watching many videos. They all seem to have different approaches so the conclusion has to be there is no one answer. Yet you keep telling forum members there is only one answer and that it to move the saddle back. Again, I state this is wrong. Either through a bike fit or trial and error once a cyclist has achieved the optimal saddle position for their pedalling action, then because of changes in physiology maybe due to aging, injury or something else, arms begin to ache, moving the saddle in not the solution...…..

Move the saddle back, it will take weight off the hands. I keep saying it because it is true.
I also keep saying to use the "balance point" method for setting saddle setback because its a good way of doing it, and it gives an inkling of what you are trying to achieve.
For the second time of asking, please share with us your method of finding "optimal saddle position". "Trial and error" doesn't help anybody (like Trigger) to get comfortable, unless you say what the "end point" is; how do you know you have finished "trialling" and found the ideal position? You mention having a bike fit to find the saddle position, and yet you say (with some justification) that bike fitters have all sorts of different approaches to the task.....so do you have a particular bike fit methodology in mind? There is little point in telling me (repeatedly) that I am wrong unless you can give an alternative means of setting up a bike.
I am reasonably free of injury, I have some arthritis in my hands; and due to aging I can't push on the pedals as hard as I used to do even ten years ago. Because I don't push as hard as I used to, the "equal and opposite reaction" of Newtonian physics is less than it was, ie. there is less upward reaction on my pelvis to help support my chest and head which are cantilevered out in front, and more weight on my hands.....until I move the saddle back. Moving the saddle 10mm has a noticeable effect on the amount of weight on your hands, you would need to move the handlebars maybe 100mm to get the same reduction, and that would make a mess of reach.

Enough of this foolishness; I am going to volunteer to help Trigger to get comfortable on his bike simply by means of communication via this CTC forum. Unless you want to?

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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby 531colin » 25 Jun 2020, 1:55pm

Trig...I'm just less than 11 stone, I ride 32mm Marathon Supremes at 45psi front and 55psi rear; they are fairly light supple tyres.

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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby 531colin » 25 Jun 2020, 2:02pm

foxyrider wrote:.........This might seem a bit off topic, but how long are your arms, fingertip to fingertip? This can have a significant influence on your comfort if the bars are too high/low, i've learnt this by experience, having got Gibbon arms to match the long legs but a relatively short torso. I don't need a long reach provided the saddle/bar height equation is right, if i go less than about 10cm i get a sore lower back. My touring bike has about twice that and its comfortable enough for repeated full days in the saddle and i'm talking 60/70 miles here.

I wouldn't claim to have found comfort Nirvana but i'll usually have run out of energy long before there are any real comfort issues.

Is that 100 or 200mm drop from saddle to bars? Tall people with long limbs often have a big bar drop, but 200mm is huge...isn't it?

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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby bikepacker » 25 Jun 2020, 3:35pm

Colin

My last bike fit was with George Longstaff himself who obviously knew very little when compared with your one size fits all approach. By the way he used KOPS has a starting point until he discovered I have on leg longer than the other. Nothing you state is original and I know you enjoy of quoting Steve Hoggs verbatim but there are a lot of professionals who do not agree with him.

As for weight on handlebars. Since commencement of the deterioration in my left hand and it’s worsening over the last five years, I have cycled over 47,000 miles and have tried every position to alleviate the pain. Your method of moving the saddle back even after purchasing a Nitto S84 to try, ranked amongst the worst solutions. Mainly because it moved me from my optimal pedalling position and made riding the bike harder work.

Hope you find a solution to Trig’s problem, if not he is welcome to come to me in Worcestershire and I will give him the benefit of my own experience in overcoming constant wrist and hand pain.
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Re: Wrist and hand pain.

Postby Trigger » 25 Jun 2020, 3:40pm

531colin wrote:Trig...I'm just less than 11 stone, I ride 32mm Marathon Supremes at 45psi front and 55psi rear; they are fairly light supple tyres.


My weight is coming down gradually, but I think since I upped my game I've been putting on leg muscle which has offset any weight loss, so whilst I've hovered about the same weight for a the past few weeks my legs are noticeably bigger. Currently 84kg.

I'm fairly stocky, 44" chest and broad shoulders, 32" waist.

I have played around a bit with position today and tried it out on the turbo trainer, I hadn't thought about being too stretched out until mentioned above so I paid a bit of attention to that and I think that could be part of the problem, even though I'm about the right height for this frame (old 22") I think it's possibly too big/long for my shape meaning I'm leaning too far forward.

With the saddle in it's current position I can comfortably do that trick from your photo Col, even to the point of leaning further forward than I would be with my arms in a riding position. Whilst riding I also consciously moved my hands around to see if I felt stretched out and whether hands closer to me made any difference and if I moved from the hoods back to the bend on the tops things seemed a little nicer, not helped by the fact one of my favourite hand positions is holding the very tops of the hoods with my little and ring fingers as though holding a gun.

I think part of my problem is I have a high tolerance for discomfort, so it's hard for me to determine whether something is really wrong or not until I've done 50-60 miles, I could probably ride any bike in any set up for 30 odd miles, I just need to get accustomed as to how I SHOULD feel on a bike rather than just riding it in any old set up just because I can.

I'll see if I can fashion something to hold my phone at the correct position to video me on the turbo trainer, probably better than waffling on in type.