Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

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Jdsk
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

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atlas_shrugged wrote:I also liked the GP movement prescription.

I'll come back to that... it's very interesting.

Jonathan
Stevek76
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

Post by Stevek76 »

atlas_shrugged wrote:What about 'carrot' policies (as previously mentioned) e.g. the Belgium system of paying commuters 23c/km to cycle to work. What do folk think about these kind of policies?


The main barrier to people cycling is lack of safe & direct routes to do it on, not sure a few quid is going to really change that much. There's only one proven way to get substantial numbers cycling for transport and that's the infrastructure to enable all ages, abilities and confidence levels to do so.

Without that most people still effectively have a great big stick preventing them from doing so and a few relatively tiny carrots isn't going to help.

Generally these carrots tend to get invented because the political will to remove the stick is lacking. And that's lacking because removing the stick stopping cycling almost always has to involve creating a stick against driving (in the form of removed traffic lanes/parking for cycle lanes on major roads and filtering most side roads thus cutting off rat runs)
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Ron
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

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al_yrpal wrote:I do not know what the answer is?Al

There are many, including home entertainment!
If you watch the tv programme 'Gogglebox' two or three times a year I'm convinced that you will observe a weight increase on quite a number of those taking part in the programme.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

Post by al_yrpal »

The trouble with taxing unhealthy food and drink is that it affects everyone indiscriminately. That odd chocolate biscuit could become sinful, and expensive!

I read that very slightly overweight folk live longer. Aim for a BMI of 26!

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Jdsk
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

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al_yrpal wrote:The trouble with taxing unhealthy food and drink is that it affects everyone indiscriminately.

No, the taxation would be proportional to the consumption.

And it works and it's feasible, which are rather important properties for any intervention.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

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atlas_shrugged wrote:I also liked the GP movement prescription.

Me too.

We had some early trials of that in Oxford. Nothing too surprising but making it practical and finding ways that patients kept it up were very important, as with all interventions that require a change in behaviour. Things like getting get off the bus one stop earlier, walking with others, walking with a dog. Again see Finland.

Here's the current page from NICE, including effectiveness and cost-effectiveness, and some other evidence:
https://www.evidence.nhs.uk/search?q=exercise%20on%20prescription
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/sms.12581
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/45/15/1223.abstract

...

It isn't obvious that advice by GPs in a single consultation for other purposes will be effective. We teach medical students that in general it isn't whereas connecting the patient to other resources might make it work... smoking cessation, reducing harm from alcohol and other drugs, eating less, all kinds of self-help groups...

But here's another view:
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2018/09/27/interventions-treat-obesity-work-why-not-celebrating/

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atlas_shrugged
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

Post by atlas_shrugged »

@jdsk Thanks. I am aware of the work of Prof Sir Muir Gray based in Oxford - an absolute legend IMHO:

https://peoplematterplus.com/people-who ... muir-gray/

Sir Muir is promoting exercise especially as an amazing benefit to older people.

The Belgium experience of paying 23c/km to Belgium commuters has been a stunning success IMHO. 400,000 Belgiums have been paid to commute to work by bike (including eBikes).

The suggestion to build safe, direct segregate cycle infrastructure is very valid. Depressingly in the UK we seem unable to get the various groups together to unite to make this happen and the UK stays 50 years behind countries in the EU in cycle infrastructure. You gave the excellent example of Finland who have turned this around. To give an example of a lack of will to build good infrastructure I would cite Marston Road in Oxford.

Marston Road cycleway is a brilliant legacy 1930s cycleway and one of many built in the UK. To upgrade and improve this cycleway would need action from: Oxford County Council, Sustrans, Cyclox, the Lottery sports fund, Central UK funds, local politicians, congestion charge benefit fund etc etc etc. The cycleway is still there but needs to be made uninterrupted with priority over *all* the side roads. The cycleway would be a connector to two major schools in Oxford as well as an arterial route from the city to the ring road cycleways. Why is the UK so paralysed that it cannot do this work?
Jdsk
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

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Great man, and one of my gurus. One of the many good fortunes of my career was working with him on a wide range of projects: population screening, laboratory investigations, evaluation of new technology, knowledge management, evidence-based medicine.

Jonathan
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

Post by PH »

atlas_shrugged wrote:Just to clarify the title instead of 'and' read 'and also'. The two issues (in the title) may be linked in some cases but both cases need solving (IMHO).

Thank you. The point I was trying to make was just that - the issues are not as closely linked as your opening post and the thread title indicate.
Of course there's some overlap, but my observation and experience as someone who has been overweight most of my life, is that diet rather than activity is the major issue. Active travel has obvious health benefits, yet I was at my heaviest when I had a 160 mile a week commute!
Even from Vorpal's many links, which I've glanced at and will read more thoroughly, I take it that much more research needs doing before conclusions can be drawn. The most detailed, from the aptly named PASTA, indicates that those driving to work are on average 4kg heavier than those using more active means. While that's not insignificant and an interesting statistic, it isn't going to be the difference between obese and a healthy weight for many people.
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

Post by PH »

al_yrpal wrote:The trouble with taxing unhealthy food and drink is that it affects everyone indiscriminately. That odd chocolate biscuit could become sinful, and expensive!
Al

Not really. If a packet of chocolate biscuits was £3 rather than 50p, those eating the odd one would hardly notice the difference in the shopping budget, but those eating a packet a day would. If next to it on the supermarket shelf you had a biscuit without the chocolate and a third of the sugar content and a third of the price, it would become more attractive. One of the issues with much of this unhealthy food is it's priced as a staple rather than the luxury treat it ought to be.
Jdsk
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

Post by Jdsk »

I'm not too bothered about sticking tightly to the Subject. There's an enormous overlap between the interventions we should be adopting to reduce obesity and cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes. The interventions that promote walking and cycling sometimes overlap with reduced use of motorised vehicles. Reduced use of motorised vehicles also decreases pollution, damage to the planet, and deaths and injuries.

Now... which interventions work and which should we adopt?

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

Post by Jdsk »

PH wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:The trouble with taxing unhealthy food and drink is that it affects everyone indiscriminately. That odd chocolate biscuit could become sinful, and expensive!

Not really. If a packet of chocolate biscuits was £3 rather than 50p, those eating the odd one would hardly notice the difference in the shopping budget, but those eating a packet a day would. If next to it on the supermarket shelf you had a biscuit without the chocolate and a third of the sugar content and a third of the price, it would become more attractive. One of the issues with much of this unhealthy food is it's priced as a staple rather than the luxury treat it ought to be.

And manufacturers will reformulate. Just as we've recently seen with sugary drinks.

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atlas_shrugged
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

Post by atlas_shrugged »

Back on to good infrastructure as an incentive (carrot policy) and the great example of Finland I could not resist posting this picture:

[img]
Helsinki_130km_greenway.jpg

[/img]
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote:
atlas_shrugged wrote:What about 'carrot' policies (as previously mentioned) e.g. the Belgium system of paying commuters 23c/km to cycle to work. What do folk think about these kind of policies?

I haven't seen much evaluation... anyone?

I'd guess that they need lots of bits to come together... roads perceived as safe, secure storage... possibly restrictions on alternative modes such as private cars...

But if they're run as trials I'll always start by supporting them. That's the way we'll learn more about what works.

Jonathan

The results of financial incentives are mixed. It seems to work pretty well in Belgium & the Netherlands, but not so much other countries.
https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/ta ... pean-trend

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... etherlands

http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2015/03/ ... g-and.html

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/17/6033/pdf

It seems that financial incentives work best when there are also initiatives to overcome barriers to cycling and/or incentives to drive.
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Stevek76
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Re: Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

Post by Stevek76 »

atlas_shrugged wrote: Why is the UK so paralysed that it cannot do this work?


Political fear of the 'motorist vote' mostly, exacerbated by the media operation from certain vested interests (e.g. oil funded propaga... 'think tanks' such as the IEA).

Just look at the reaction across the country, and particularly in London, to the various experimental active travel measures that have gone in over the last year. It's really on a minority of people but a rather loud one.

National government policy hasn't helped either, nor does the continuing fuel duty freeze whilst rail and bus fares rise.

atlas_shrugged wrote:The Belgium experience of paying 23c/km to Belgium commuters has been a stunning success IMHO. 400,000 Belgiums have been paid to commute to work by bike (including eBikes)


There been an actual evaluation of that success? I can only see some info about an increase in uptake but little assessment to unpick how much is just more companies signing up and how much is an actual increase in cycling. And with the latter, how much of that increase is because people are being paid and how much is a result of other changes (e.g. what ghent did to its central area a few years ago).

I'd expect the disutility of perceived danger for most people of cycling in mixed traffic on non-quiet roads to be rather higher than 23c/km and so I wonder if this is more rewarding existing cyclists than it is getting new ones.
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