Obesity epidemic and our addiction to oil

[mjr]

First of all, a post office is a service, not a store. If post offices are not going to be available to people within easy walking or cycling distance, more postal delivery services need to be restored, and people need to be able to buy stamps and special packaging within easy walking and cycling distance.

I only remember one post office in my whole borough that isn't also a store and that's a part-time thing operating from someone's house.

As for buying stamps locally, I guess you've not seen the changes of the last year, with Royal Mail having added doorstep collection services and made it easier to use print-at-home prepaid postage labels (which are the same as the post office label printers output). That's as well as the proliferation of courier pickup points at shops and automatic parcel cupboards at service stations and supermarkets. And the increase in online shopping means many people have lots of packaging, some of which is a nuisance to recycle (pretty much has to be taken to a big supermarket and we try to avoid those during covid, using collection or delivery services).

Secondly my statement is general, not necessarily meaning that every village should a bunch of nonviable small businesses, but that there is a balance between providing opportunities to shop or purchase goods, and the distance that people are willing to travel by active travel, public transport and/or some combination.

I agree with that but your previous statement seemed very different, excluding a load of small villages as "no good" for active travel measures: "On a related note, a general strategy for expected travel time to schools, shops, post office, and other essential businesses should be developed and supported with funding. It's no good supporting active travel, if it is done in by a village not having a nearby post office, nor public transport to get there."

If people have a choice between driving 20 minutes from a village into the closest town and using an hour or more on walking + public transport or cycling, what do you think they will do?

Drive. That's why I am a big supporter of the 20-minute neighbourhoods idea.

Many 'neighbouring villages' have also lost their shops and post office.

Even out here on the fens, that's not true. Surely more densely-populated Essex wasn't worse?

Even supposing there is one, many village shops have been downsized to the point that it can be difficult to purchase everything a family needs for meals for a week, let alone household goods or clothing.

Indeed, but it is great for daily shopping, while the more difficult items get delivered by the proliferation of weekly box services, the much-expanded grocery delivery services or a longer weekly trip to the nearest town.

It doesn't do any good to ensure that there is a brilliant network of pedestrian and cycling infrastructure connecting villages, if (as an example) people are unwilling to travel more than 20 minutes to do their shopping, and many/most people do not have shopping within a 20 minute walk or cycle.

Indeed and you're making my points for me. Where we disagree is that I am fairly sure from experience and tools like https://app.traveltime.com/ that almost all villages could have pretty decent daily shopping within a 20 minute cycle if the infrastructure was fixed to improve the "barrier roads" that the TravelTime app includes but almost no-one wants to cycle on or sometimes even cross. I feel that is less likely to happen if even cyclists keep posting that reconnecting villages is "no good" and keep pushing for millions and millions to be spent in towns and cities.

The same thing goes for schools. [...]

I agree with that, I think.

[thirdcrank]

IMO the big point about travel is that the various features of motor transport have changed settlement patterns and land use in a way that won't be quickly reversed by public policy. Many people no longer have to live over the shop or just down the road. Ease of parking is a big influence on many decisions. This is self-reinforcing in that access to a motor vehicle becomes increasingly necessary as so much is organised on that basis.

I suspect that future changes will be driven largely by technological innovation, rather than public policy. eg The pandemic has triggered changes like widespread working from home which have been discussed for years but only now happened. A bit further on, autonomous vehicles are predicted, which may in turn have effects which are unpredictable.

As for exercise, many people seem happy with driving to a gym and paying for membership or shelling out for something like Peloton, rather than combining exercise with travel.

[mjr]

I suspect that future changes will be driven largely by technological innovation, rather than public policy. eg The pandemic has triggered changes like widespread working from home which have been discussed for years but only now happened. A bit further on, autonomous vehicles are predicted, which may in turn have effects which are unpredictable.

I think that is possible and e-bikes including cargo e-bikes, and e-scooters are an opportunity along these lines, because they could use the same infrastructure to the benefit of us all, if the e-scooter regs impose similar speed/power limits to e-bikes. They could avoid replacing a lot of cars with e-cars. And longer-distance autonomous vehicles must be required to have enough space to carry bikes or e-scooters.

As for exercise, many people seem happy with driving to a gym and paying for membership or shelling out for something like Peloton, rather than combining exercise with travel.

I doubt that's as many as travel actively and here's why:

Prepandemic, total gym membership had only reached 15% in 2019 and that includes technical memberships which were bought to secure some discount on occasional council leisure centre use or were bought for a New Year Resolution and then never used — and total memberships will have fallen during the pandemic.

Meanwhile, 17% of England cycled more than monthly and that has shot up during 2020 (trebled by some estimates) but I think official stats are still months away.

I don't know how many people subscribe to "something like Peloton". Peloton itself reportedly has 1.6m subscribers globally. The "Peloton UK Community" has 16,000 but it's not clear to me if there are other UK user groups alongside that. Then there are all the other similar things like Zwift, but on the other side, some (many?) of those will be subscribed to multiple systems or gym membership too.

[Vorpal]

First of all, a post office is a service, not a store. If post offices are not going to be available to people within easy walking or cycling distance, more postal delivery services need to be restored, and people need to be able to buy stamps and special packaging within easy walking and cycling distance.

I only remember one post office in my whole borough that isn't also a store and that's a part-time thing operating from someone's house.

As for buying stamps locally, I guess you've not seen the changes of the last year, with Royal Mail having added doorstep collection services and made it easier to use print-at-home prepaid postage labels (which are the same as the post office label printers output). That's as well as the proliferation of courier pickup points at shops and automatic parcel cupboards at service stations and supermarkets. And the increase in online shopping means many people have lots of packaging, some of which is a nuisance to recycle (pretty much has to be taken to a big supermarket and we try to avoid those during covid, using collection or delivery services).

You are right that I wasn't aware of recent changes, but my point stands. Many post offices are *in* shops, but they don't have to *be* shops. They provide a service and should not be subject to a need to be viable businesses.

Secondly my statement is general, not necessarily meaning that every village should a bunch of nonviable small businesses, but that there is a balance between providing opportunities to shop or purchase goods, and the distance that people are willing to travel by active travel, public transport and/or some combination.

I agree with that but your previous statement seemed very different, excluding a load of small villages as "no good" for active travel measures: "On a related note, a general strategy for expected travel time to schools, shops, post office, and other essential businesses should be developed and supported with funding. It's no good supporting active travel, if it is done in by a village not having a nearby post office, nor public transport to get there."

I never excluded villages. My point was not meant how you took it, and I clarified it. I have also said similar things on other threads in the past.

If people have a choice between driving 20 minutes from a village into the closest town and using an hour or more on walking + public transport or cycling, what do you think they will do?

Drive. That's why I am a big supporter of the 20-minute neighbourhoods idea.

Many 'neighbouring villages' have also lost their shops and post office.

Even out here on the fens, that's not true. Surely more densely-populated Essex wasn't worse?

Even supposing there is one, many village shops have been downsized to the point that it can be difficult to purchase everything a family needs for meals for a week, let alone household goods or clothing.

Indeed, but it is great for daily shopping, while the more difficult items get delivered by the proliferation of weekly box services, the much-expanded grocery delivery services or a longer weekly trip to the nearest town.

It doesn't do any good to ensure that there is a brilliant network of pedestrian and cycling infrastructure connecting villages, if (as an example) people are unwilling to travel more than 20 minutes to do their shopping, and many/most people do not have shopping within a 20 minute walk or cycle.

Indeed and you're making my points for me. Where we disagree is that I am fairly sure from experience and tools like https://app.traveltime.com/ that almost all villages could have pretty decent daily shopping within a 20 minute cycle if the infrastructure was fixed to improve the "barrier roads" that the TravelTime app includes but almost no-one wants to cycle on or sometimes even cross.

South of the A120, I expect that almost all villages have a shop within 20 minutes active travel. Outside of the towns, north of the A120, many villages are too small for a shop, and not very close to a village that is big enough for one. Or there is one, but it more like for bread, milk, nappies, & emergency meal, rather than a daily shop.

Anyway, people don't want to do daily shopping 20 minutes away. They want to do daily shopping 5 or 10 minutes away, or on their way home from work, and weekly shopping 20 minutes away. Maybe 30.

Where I used to live, we were lucky. We had a reasonable Co-op & were within approx 30 minutes bike ride to a town with decent shopping. Likely more people from the village would have cycled into town, at least occasionally, with safe infrastructure.

But honestly, my main point is that infrastructure, schools, service, shops, housing, etc. need to be looked at holistically. I don't know if there are any countries that do a good job of that, but the UK certainly does not. Norway is a little better, only in that they have travel distance & time targets for schools, and provide school or public transport when children need to travel greater than walking distance for school. And driving is much more expensive. But they still feel free to close post offices, here. They closed our closest & the next closest. We have two approx 20 minutes away by bike or bus, but it's not nearly as convenient as when we had one a 10 minute walk away.

It would help a great deal if the costs of driving were more representative of the actual costs, including those to society. I expect that many more villages could again have viable shops and post offices.

[Jdsk]

But honestly, my main point is that infrastructure, schools, service, shops, housing, etc. need to be looked at holistically. I don't know if there are any countries that do a good job of that, but the UK certainly does not.

Yes. We can and should make many individual improvements but it needs to be much more joined up. And I'd add food policy.

The best example of joined up policy on cardiovascular health is Finland, as we've discussed. That includes exercise but I don't think that it connects to an integrated transport policy.

Jonathan

[mattsccm]

Something I think many of those preaching active travel forget is the biggest issue altogether. The combination of weather and convienience.
My wife fills the boots of the car once a week on a supermarket shop. Thats isn't going to happen on a bike. No way is a quick trip to the local shop going to happen when there is still a need/desire to go to the super market in town, even if just for one thing. Pointless waste of time and fuel. If it's cold wet, hot or what ever 2 minutes in the car is preferable to 10 minutes on the bike. 8.
Delivery services are not the option. If you are a rural dweller the van driver, whilst handy when needed , is the scum of the earth when not. Blasted pain in the proverbial driving too fast in daft vehicles, wrecking the road side etc.
My point of view which of course isn't universal or always right but give to indicate that no matter what some people want, others won't.9

[mattsccm]

Far more effective may be to stigmatise poor health if self inflicted but oh no we can't be unkind to nyone can we?

[mattsccm]

And another thought brought on by some radio programme in the week. Why pick on SUV drivers? Why not all other big and expensive cars. To my mind the driver of a BMW 7 series or Audi A4 is a far bigger problem that the driver of the average Disco. For a stack speed is usually thrown in to the driving equation.

[Vorpal]

Something I think many of those preaching active travel forget is the biggest issue altogether. The combination of weather and convienience.
My wife fills the boots of the car once a week on a supermarket shop. Thats isn't going to happen on a bike. No way is a quick trip to the local shop going to happen when there is still a need/desire to go to the super market in town, even if just for one thing. Pointless waste of time and fuel. If it's cold wet, hot or what ever 2 minutes in the car is preferable to 10 minutes on the bike. 8.
Delivery services are not the option. If you are a rural dweller the van driver, whilst handy when needed , is the scum of the earth when not. Blasted pain in the proverbial driving too fast in daft vehicles, wrecking the road side etc.
My point of view which of course isn't universal or always right but give to indicate that no matter what some people want, others won't.9

While I can accept that there are some areas that are too remote to make active travel suitable, people generally make these decisions based upon convenience. If cycling becomes more convenient, and driving becomes less convenient & more expensive, people will make different decisions. If a journey can be done in 10 minutes by bikes, there should be little or no parking, and what is available should be expensive.

But this is where the holistic approach becomes important. How far are people travelling to a particular shop or shopping centre & why? A village shop probably has a limited catchment. The number of parking spaces available should be a function of the area from which people travel. If it is 1 mile, the parking could potentially be limited to handicap parking. Obviously the parking has to be enforced. And, it also has to be coordinated for an area. It doesn't help if people drive 4 miles to the next village rather than walking 10 minutes because the shop at the next village has plentiful & free parking.

[al_yrpal]

Even with my two 56 litre panniers there is no way I could get a major shop into them, they are just too small. Put in a 2 litre container of milk some cans of dog food, Bananas, a bag of potatoes, some tins of tomatoes and a couple of bottles of wine, the weight of all that would be becoming a problem too. This 78 year old is reasonably fit and well able to cycle a few miles loaded up but I would say that 3/4 of my contemporaries over 60 wouldnt due to lack of puff, various ailments and poor balance etc. Then, there is the question of weather, cold, rain, snow and ice as well as hills of which we have plenty.
We are on the move to a house that is within yards of a small post office stores with a bus stop to the town, major supermarkets and hospital. Although its very old the new house has a number of parking spaces too. I shall continue to do weekly shops at a big supermarket with a vehicle and wander across the road to post stuff and get milk, bananas, the odd newspaper and bottle of wine. I wont be using the bike to shop because its impractical.
If you look around our town there are huge estates of modern houses with no shops nearby, the old house we are buying is in an old part of a village which has been joined onto the town by swathes of modern houses with no local shops or facilities, ... thank you so called town planners! The people who live on these estates obviously do their shopping by car as they do on their visit to Macdonald's evidenced by several hundred yard queues at all hours.

Al

[Jdsk]

But this is where the holistic approach becomes important.

Yes.

Unfortunately in the UK there is currently nothing resembling this. And I don't see anything in the imminent reorganisation of public health that will change that.

Jonathan

[markjohnobrien]

I must admit I use the car when I rarely go to CostCo (once every couple of months if that ) but the rest of the time I shop locally 2-3 times a week using the large panniers on a bike. Which is what the bike and panniers were made for.

When I say locally, it is upto 6 miles each way dependant on which particular shop I’m visiting.

[Jdsk]

I must admit I use the car when I rarely go to CostCo (once every couple of months if that ) but the rest of the time I shop locally 2-3 times a week using the large panniers on a bike. Which is what the bike and panniers were made for.

When I say locally, it is upto 6 miles each way dependant on which particular shop I’m visiting.

In the absence of joined-up policies... what would be the single best achievable change that would encourage a neighbour to do the same?

Thanks

Jonathan

[Psamathe]

....
We are on the move to a house that is within yards of a small post office stores with a bus stop to the town, major supermarkets and hospital.....

Having a bus stop is no solution - you need buses as well! I live less than ½ mile from a bus stop and the couple of buses every day are timed to be totally useless. And they only take you to the city, not the nearest town/supermarket/GP/etc..

Ian

[simonineaston]

The day is fast approaching when it will be too late. Thus human-kind will have lived in three ages - the long, long time when they did not consider the notion of stewardship of their home planet and just took it for granted; the much shorter time when they knew what they had done & could have done something about it - and the time after that momentous & pivotal day, when it became too late to make a difference, regardless of what they did. As far as I'm able to tell, that awful day is Monday 12th of April, 2021.