Statins - side effects

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mjr
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by mjr »

softlips wrote:
Mick F wrote:How high were your readings, and what was your dose?


I can't remember what my levels were to be honest. I take 10mg Altorvaststin now.

I was sat with a group of senior consultants cardiologists and a professor of cardiology on Tuesday. A junior asked what the group thought had had the biggest impact on patients lives during their career and unanimously they said statins.

Well, that comment can be read both ways! They definitely had a big impact on my life, with two of them almost crippling me. Would cardiologists have to deal with the damage to other muscles or the liver anyway?

10mg Atorvastatin seems a rather small dose. I wonder if your levels were that high, what it's doing and whether you'd still be happy on 40s.
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geomannie
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by geomannie »

New Scientist

For those who read New Scientist, in this weeks edition there is an interesting article on statins. Unfortunately I can't provide a link to the article (its behind a pay-wall) but I can give a few headlines.

“140 low-risk people must be treated with statins for five years to prevent one major coronary event or stroke”. Not only that, but there was no reduction in the overall mortality rate from all causes in that period.

but
even these figures, extrapolated to whole populations, equate to hundreds of thousands of people avoiding heart attacks.

the author comments
I felt fit as a fiddle at the time of my diagnosis, but better safe than sorry – or dead. So I started popping a daily statin as my consultant recommended. At first it was fine. I even did another triathlon. But a year later, exercise was getting harder. I was slower on the football pitch. I couldn’t lift the weights I used to. If I did a lot of exercise in a day – two hours, say – I would end the evening curled up in a ball on the sofa, in flu-like muscle pain.

and
After two years on statins I had stopped going to the gym. I gave up running. I cut down on swimming. I simply couldn’t bear the pain – or the humiliation of being so weak and sluggish. In the end, I told my doctor I wanted to stop taking statins because they were turning me into a couch potato. Surely that was as bad for me as having high cholesterol?

in one study based in Paris, 87 per cent of participants [in statins] complained of pain. Last year, David Spence and George Dresser at the University of Western Ontario in Canada wrote in the Journal of the American Heart Association that, despite claims from clinical trial data that adverse reactions are vanishingly rare, “in real-world practice, myalgia and cramps are more common than estimated from clinical trials“.


Over all, the article makes no firm conclusions but suggests that if you are otherwise healthy, apart from raised cholesterol, taking statins is unlikely to do you as an individual much good, though it may. Also, the article suggests that side effects are more common than generally accepted.

Treat yourself to a copy of New Scientist to read the full article.
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by irc »

geomannie wrote:even these figures, extrapolated to whole populations, equate to hundreds of thousands of people avoiding heart attacks.[/i]


By the same logic on a whole population basis it equates to millions of people being medicated unnecessarily and suffering side effects without any benefit.
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by georgew »

After suffering two heart attacks and a small stroke I was in the group most likely to benefit from statins, that said I did have my second heart attack while on statins. It's impossible to say whether taking these have saved me from further heart attacks but I can say with certainty that they have changed my life. I seemed to have suffered from every possible side-effect having had severe muscle cramps, extreme fatigue, depression, muscle loss, joint pain, constipation, and as I've lately discovered...a compromised immune system. After many years I've now been off this drug for around a month and most if not all these effects have disappeared and for the first time in years I feel human again.
While I wouldn't presume to advise anyone not to take these drugs, I would certainly advise anyone considering these, to have a good, long look at the possible consequences.
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by geomannie »

Hi Georgew

compromised immune system


Can you tell us more? One of the reasons I stopped taking statins was that I felt it was interfering with my immune system. As well as fatigue I had constant colds, but finally decided to stop statins when I developed ringworm in my groin, an infection often associated with a compromised immune system.

Immune system problems are not widely reported with statins but if my/your experience are correct may be relatively common.
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by Mick F »

I have Alopecia Unversalis ............. no hair anywhere.
It started about 18months ago, and by this time last year, all hair had gone.
I quite like it TBH, and I hope it doesn't grow back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alopecia_universalis
.............. is currently believed to be an autoimmune disorder, in which a person's immune system attacks the hair follicles.


If you go right back to the beginning of this thread, you'll see that I stopped taking statins and eventually saw a specialist. I'm now on fortnightly injections of Repatha.

When I first saw the specialist, I asked him about my hair loss and if it had anything to do with statins. He said it hadn't anything to do with them ....................... but I reckon it has. I was on BIG statins for many years, and stopped taking them. It's bound to have upset something IMHO.
Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by georgew »

geomannie wrote:Hi Georgew

compromised immune system


Can you tell us more? One of the reasons I stopped taking statins was that I felt it was interfering with my immune system. As well as fatigue I had constant colds, but finally decided to stop statins when I developed ringworm in my groin, an infection often associated with a compromised immune system.

Immune system problems are not widely reported with statins but if my/your experience are correct may be relatively common.


I found that I had a fungal infection between my buttocks....the first fungal infection I've had in 77 years and some searching found that some reports indicated that long-term statin use could cause ones immune system to be compromised.
I have to use intermittent self-catheterisation, a procedure that makes one vulnerable to urine infections. Even though my techniques for this were extermely strict I found that the incidents of infection steadily increased and I suspect that statins played a part in this.

I know that increasing age may have a part to play and it may be difficult to separate out the consequences from statin use and this fact....but I have to say that after stopping statins I now feel fully human for the first time in years.
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Re: Statins - side effects

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georgew wrote:I know that increasing age may have a part to play and it may be difficult to separate out the consequences from statin use and this fact....but I have to say that after stopping statins I now feel fully human for the first time in years.

Feel free not to answer any of these, but: which statin were you on, which have you tried, has your blood cholesterol density increased again, are your medics in agreement with stopping and are you trying any other treatments?

For my part, I'm now back on a treatment similar to https://athletictimemachine.com/2014/10 ... d-statins/ (but using colestipol rather than cholestryamine) - levels are close to target but not quite close enough for the clinic (total of 6 rather than 5 and LDL of 4 rather than 3½).
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by geomannie »

Hi georgew

I am intrigued to hear that you detected a compromised immune system through developing a fungal infection in an intimate place. Same as me. Unlike you, I was relatively young at the time (48ish) so age was not a particular factor for me. Since stopping statins I have never had a fungal infection since.

Cheers
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by georgew »

mjr wrote:
georgew wrote:I know that increasing age may have a part to play and it may be difficult to separate out the consequences from statin use and this fact....but I have to say that after stopping statins I now feel fully human for the first time in years.

Feel free not to answer any of these, but: which statin were you on, which have you tried, has your blood cholesterol density increased again, are your medics in agreement with stopping and are you trying any other treatments?

For my part, I'm now back on a treatment similar to https://athletictimemachine.com/2014/10 ... d-statins/ (but using colestipol rather than cholestryamine) - levels are close to target but not quite close enough for the clinic (total of 6 rather than 5 and LDL of 4 rather than 3½).



Before stopping I was taking 40mg of Simvastatin but originally had been taking another which gave me even more horrible side-effects.
My GP was receptive to the idea of my stopping and said that I'd probably had the full value of the Statins already given my age and the length of time I'd been taking them. He was in agreement with my suggestion that I take "Pure EPA" fish oil (although he seemed unaware it existed) and did suggest taking vitamin D supplements as well. I had already been prescribed Omega3 fish oil but according to my research this was not ideal for cardiac problems although it is the only one prescribed by the NHS. Apparently the fact that Omega 3 contains two fatty acids is counter-productive in preventing the build-up of plaque on the inner walls of the arteries.
As to my cholesterol levels I have already had a base-line blood test test taken and need to return in a month for another so that the results can be compared.
All in all, I'll gladly take the chance of having another heart attack if it means continuing to feel the way I do at the moment.
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Re: Statins - side effects

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georgew wrote:As to my cholesterol levels I have already had a base-line blood test test taken and need to return in a month for another so that the results can be compared.
All in all, I'll gladly take the chance of having another heart attack if it means continuing to feel the way I do at the moment.

Best wishes and please let us know if you find what works for you. It sucks that the choice seems to be between a higher risk and statin side-effects.

Back on page 7 (I think), I linked to a study of statin tolerance in athletes. Based on the people I know who have reported side-effects, I wonder whether if there's increased intolerance among all physically-active people and not only professional athletes. Has anyone seen a study of such things?
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by mjr »

Another post-statin technique is being developed. Permanent PCSK9 inhibition (so an effect like taking Repatha/Praluent forever) by editing DNA: https://www.newscientist.com/article/21 ... nging-dna/

It's not a cure for FH because it does nothing to repair the damaged-LDL-receptor mutation, but it's a second mutation which seems to counterbalance it. I'll be surprised if AstraZeneca doesn't try to develop this further because the current PCSK9 inhibitors are "owned" by Amgen, Regeneron and Sanofi.

It's also over a decade away from trials, according to the expert quoted in the article.
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by georgew »

^^^^^^^^
Interesting, but I do wonder if any research has been done to unravel the mystery of the "French paradox"... in that while they seem to have similar cholesterol levels as ourselves they appear to have a lower rate of cardiac problems.
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Re: Statins - side effects

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georgew wrote:^^^^^^^^
Interesting, but I do wonder if any research has been done to unravel the mystery of the "French paradox"... in that while they seem to have similar cholesterol levels as ourselves they appear to have a lower rate of cardiac problems.

Tons of it! It's no paradox and that name bugs me and many others. Many factors have been suggested - off the top of my head, the biggest is that the French resisted the rise of American-style processed foods (and its consequential increase in trans fat intake) and car-dominated lifestyles (and consequent increase in physical inactivity) longer and more than the UK did, so they'll probably be some years behind us in seeing a rise in cardiac problems, but others have suggested higher red wine intake, higher alcohol intake, higher fresh fruit/veg intake, lower sugar intake, smaller portion sizes, home-made food, higher carcinogenic food intake (so cancer kills you before a heart attack!) and statistical collection practices (IIRC the UK records "myocardial infarction" as cause of death more readily than France) as possible cardiac-problem-mitigating factors... and it might be some combination, or some other factor not yet studied!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_paradox has some links to various things and here's a more prosaic explanation from the American Society of Nutrition: https://www.nutrition.org/asn-blog/2013 ... -the-wine/
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Re: Statins - side effects

Post by 531colin »

georgew wrote:............
I know that increasing age may have a part to play and it may be difficult to separate out the consequences from statin use and this fact....but I have to say that after stopping statins I now feel fully human for the first time in years.


I am now refusing statins.
I took one for maybe 20 years, until muscle pain and stiffness became unbearable.......muscle pain/stiffness is the most common side-effect listed in the leaflet, and predisposing factors are age and light weight.....well, I've never been this old before, and I haven't been this light since I was maybe 30.
I took about a year off statins, and was back to 100 mile days in the summer. Then I got talked into trying another statin, about 3 months this time until I was unable to put my socks on.
So thats it, no more statins for me. If I were to take the bloody things I rather doubt I would live for ever, but it might just feel like it!
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