Chain joining.

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Vetus Ossa
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Chain joining.

Postby Vetus Ossa » 11 Aug 2017, 4:43pm

Until I stated using KMC Missing Links I always used to join my links like the guy in the video says NOT to.
I can’t say in 50 odd years of cycling I have never not had a chain break, but recon you could count the on one hand and have fingers left over.
Have I just been lucky?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hodXyOkyP94

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meic
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Re: Chain joining.

Postby meic » 11 Aug 2017, 4:51pm

Just behind the times.
In the past decade or more the chains have changed and his advice is good for these newer chains which come with the special joining pin, like the 11speed one in his video.
Yma o Hyd

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Vetus Ossa
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Re: Chain joining.

Postby Vetus Ossa » 11 Aug 2017, 5:10pm

meic wrote:Just behind the times.
In the past decade or more the chains have changed and his advice is good for these newer chains which come with the special joining pin, like the 11speed one in his video.


Ah, right ho, thanks.

Barry and Janet wil
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Re: Chain joining.

Postby Barry and Janet wil » 11 Aug 2017, 7:44pm

In times of old the pin was simply an interference fit in the outer plates so could be forcibly removed and refitted. Now the end of the pin seems to be slightly peened over so is much larger than the rest of the pin and the hole through which it sits. When you now drive out the pin the hole is enlarged, and worse. When you refit the pin, if one uses ones wife's reading glasses, you will see a small ring of metal removed from the outer plate, making its hole sloppy, and so unusable.

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Brucey
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Re: Chain joining.

Postby Brucey » 11 Aug 2017, 8:41pm

I've seen metal removed from the peened pin and/or from the side plate itself in links that have been originally set with peened pins.

To my knowledge the first chains that were like this (and were commonly available) were the sedisport chain and the suntour 'ultra' series for use on their compact (5mm spacing pitch) freewheels, first appearing in the late 1970s.

Those two lines on the pins of all sedisport/sachs/SRAM bushingless chains (up to about 9s) were marks from the peening, which raised two large burrs on each end of each pin. Possibly there are variations with chain model about which I don't know, but these chains may be rejoined using a chain tool, and it is clear that the rejoined link (even if there is no swarf evident) is weaker than the others; the pin pushes out far more easily. I think it is better to use a joining pin or a joining link on these chains. Even so I don't think it is common to break a rejoined chain if it is joined with a chain tool.

Other makes have heavier peening and thus are weakened more when a chain tool is used. The 'special joining pin' is meant to be oversized (and/or with little grooves) where it goes through the damaged side plates, so is meant to be tighter fit. For example KMC chains (up to ~8s) typically use four swages on each pin head, so raise four (smaller) burrs to damage the side plate with as the pin is pushed out.

Nearly all 10s (and in some makes 9s) chains use so-called 'bullseye' riveting, which raises a flange all the way round the head of each rivet. Because the rivet ends are flush with the side plate, the side plate usually has a joggle or a counterbore at the edge of the hole. It takes noticeably more force to push the pin out when shortening the chain, and I think that more damage arises. That each rivet has a central depression helps the chain tool stay centred, but if the wrong chain tool is used, the pin in the tool won't find the centre and can slip off and/or bend. You can in an emergency rejoin these using a chain tool but don't expect the joined link to be easy to make or strong or durable.

11s chains vary; most are constructed like 10s chains but with even thinner side plates and joining methods vary. Campag use a joining pin which is soft on one end, and riveting procedure that swages the joining pin so that it won't push out. It is a lot easier to use a joining link, but these occasionally cause trouble as well.

KMC make models of quicklink that are compatible with most chains, and some are available in re-usable (handy if you are in the habit of cleaning the chain off the bike) and non-reusable versions. In any event they wear just like any other link and should be replaced when you fit a new chain. There are occasional reports of QLs breaking or coming adrift in service; for this reason (plus they usually enable a broken chain to be repaired) it is a very good idea to carry one as a spare.

FWIW chain breakages are thankfully rare despite that modern chains are mostly made possible by using skinnier side-plates. Cynics may well suggest that they are made less likely to break by virtue of the fact that they don't last as long anyway before they wear out; I couldn't possibly comment.... :roll: That the riveting (and/or the forming used to make a QL) may weaken the outer side plates seems clear; unless a pin pops out, when chains break it is almost invariably the outer side plates which crack, even though they are the same thickness as the inner side plates. Occasionally I have seen a chain break and it seems that either something was wrong with every link or the conditions of (winter) use cause corrosion which helps the failures along.

cheers
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Mick F
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Re: Chain joining.

Postby Mick F » 12 Aug 2017, 8:00am

I had always removed and replaced rivets in chains. Sedisort was my favourite chain in the 80's and 90's when I was 6sp and 7sp.
I went over to Campag 9sp in 2004 and split and rejoined the Record 9sp chains numerous times with no issue whatsoever. Yes, they were difficult to split, but joining was simple and foolproof. I reckoned on my getting a different link each time, as the odds on removing the same one twice were 1in100 and more.

I wasn't until I joined this forum and then read that you shouldn't do what I was doing, that I gave it any thought at all, but carried on regardless nevertheless ................... until I bit the bullet and bought a KMC Missing Link which made the job very simple indeed and didn't need a chain tool. I was very pleased with the system.

Since going over to 10sp, I've carried on using the KMC Missing links.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Gattonero
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Re: Chain joining.

Postby Gattonero » 12 Aug 2017, 9:54am

Mick F wrote:I had always removed and replaced rivets in chains. Sedisort was my favourite chain in the 80's and 90's when I was 6sp and 7sp.
I went over to Campag 9sp in 2004 and split and rejoined the Record 9sp chains numerous times with no issue whatsoever. Yes, they were difficult to split, but joining was simple and foolproof. I reckoned on my getting a different link each time, as the odds on removing the same one twice were 1in100 and more.

I wasn't until I joined this forum and then read that you shouldn't do what I was doing, that I gave it any thought at all, but carried on regardless nevertheless ................... until I bit the bullet and bought a KMC Missing Link which made the job very simple indeed and didn't need a chain tool. I was very pleased with the system.

Since going over to 10sp, I've carried on using the KMC Missing links.


The Record C9 is not a problem to open and rejoin if done correctly.
This cannot be done with some other 9sp chains, and pretty much all the 10 or 11sp chains I know.

For the 10sp, I prefer to use the Sram powerlocks as they fit better on Campag chains, the KMC ones even when marked "for campagnolo" feel a bit sloppy IMO
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since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Re: Chain joining.

Postby Brucey » 12 Aug 2017, 10:49am

Gattonero wrote: ....For the 10sp, I prefer to use the Sram powerlocks as they fit better on Campag chains, the KMC ones even when marked "for campagnolo" feel a bit sloppy IMO


IIRC there are at least two different widths that have been used for Campag 10s chains. The currently available chains are closer to (but still not identical to) the width of shimano chains. I wonder if the KMC link is made to fit all campag chains and is therefore slightly wider than it needs to be for those typically found currently?

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Mick F
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Re: Chain joining.

Postby Mick F » 12 Aug 2017, 9:07pm

I think you are correct there Brucey.

The KMC links seem to fit differently these days but the other way round to what you are saying.
In the past, the KMC links fitted fine, but the last few I've used - and am using now - tend to be a very tight fit.
They go on with difficulty and come off with difficulty too until they wear in but once they're on, they're fine.
Mick F. Cornwall

JohnW
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Re: Chain joining.

Postby JohnW » 13 Aug 2017, 12:27am

Vetus Ossa wrote:Until I stated using KMC Missing Links I always used to join my links like the guy in the video says NOT to.
I can’t say in 50 odd years of cycling I have never not had a chain break, but recon you could count the on one hand and have fingers left over.
Have I just been lucky?

No, I think you've just been intelligently and thoughtfully - and carefully - doing it right. Sedisport chains were, for their time, narrow chains but for fitting and joining in the traditional way were a dream to use - it's just that chains have changed. I was jointing the narrower still KMC chains for a while until I too had a failure - the first of that kind I've ever had. It's as MickF has said, the KMC magic links are so much quicker and easier anyway. I've just accepted it.

Joining narrow chains using a chain splitter isn't an impossibility - a couple of years ago a friend had a chain on a 9-speed cassette fail the night before a Sunday morning Audax. He had no magic link (dunno why, or where it went) and I didn't have a magic link myself - certainly not the right width for his chain. He's not really mechanically talented and he walked it round to me to see if I could help - he'd walked about 6 miles with it. I just mended it the traditional way as best I could, being aware of the accuracy needed. I told him that he was risking it - I told him that it was best not to do the ride - I told him that if he did the ride and all went well, he should take the bike to the LBS on the Monday morning.

All went well, and he didn't have the chain changed until it, and the cassette, had become life-expired in the normal way. So why did I make a bog-'ole of not joining my own chain properly?


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