Poor frame design?

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roger
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby roger » 12 Jan 2018, 10:24pm

Perhaps it was the first dropout the builder could find trying to meet the dealers requirements. It looks like something that a fair bit of thought has gone into, but was an equal amount of thought put into to it by the builder?

Maybe in the old days you could fit an old ball race and cups bb with the axle reversed.

Roger.

reohn2
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jan 2018, 12:28am

CJ wrote:Just as I thought. Completely unnecessary outward protrusion. The extended dropout could so easily have been designed to sit entirely below the post-mounts (stronger like that too) including the mounting surface for the chainstay to be welded onto. To make that stick out even further still is crazy, a triumph of form over function, some art-school designer's blinkered notion of style over substance.

I can't argue with any of that,poor design :?
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reohn2
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jan 2018, 12:30am

Brucey wrote:I guess that design does allow you to run 200+ mm dia disc brake at the rear, but..... who would want to do that....? It is not as if it is tandem, is it.... :roll:

cheers

And a solo can manage quite well with a 140 rotor on the rear...
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reohn2
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jan 2018, 11:42am

roger wrote:Perhaps it was the first dropout the builder could find trying to meet the dealers requirements. It looks like something that a fair bit of thought has gone into, but was an equal amount of thought put into to it by the builder?

Maybe in the old days you could fit an old ball race and cups bb with the axle reversed.

Roger.

The problem is that there's very little thought gone into it,especially for the taller rider with big feet and who prefers longer 175mm cranks,all of which is outside Mr Average size.
The annoying thing is that with not much thought and design the problem could be totally avoided.
It's the same with silly steep seatube angles of 73 degrees or more in large and XL frame sizes,most frame designers simple don't think.
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Gattonero
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby Gattonero » 13 Jan 2018, 12:15pm

Phileas wrote:The left stay is definitely wider than on my previous disc bike although this picture doesn't prove it:

Image


I won't say it's necessarily a "frame design fault". There's only so much you can safely manipulate the tubing of the frame, and that chainstay has been curved for a reason.
So let's start with the first culprit: how are you cleats aligned, and especially do they follow the natural movement of your feet?
I.e. my feet are all but straight in their position, even in rest they are at least on "11:05am" o'clock, though not been as bad as "10:10am" they can be in the way of straight chainstays with narrow cranks, occasionally I've had the problem of heel-rubbing on track bikes, but would blame my feet before the frame :(
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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CJ
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby CJ » 13 Jan 2018, 12:47pm

Gattonero wrote:I won't say it's necessarily a "frame design fault". There's only so much you can safely manipulate the tubing of the frame, and that chainstay has been curved for a reason.

Yeah right, and it's manipulated a whole lot more than the other chainstay. And the reason: because the dropout is a stupid shape.

So let's start with the first culprit: how are you cleats aligned, and especially do they follow the natural movement of your feet?
I.e. my feet are all but straight in their position, even in rest they are at least on "11:05am" o'clock, though not been as bad as "10:10am" they can be in the way of straight chainstays with narrow cranks, occasionally I've had the problem of heel-rubbing on track bikes, but would blame my feet before the frame :(

You are familiar with the story of the Emperor's new clothes right?
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reohn2
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jan 2018, 12:57pm

Gattonero wrote:
Phileas wrote:The left stay is definitely wider than on my previous disc bike although this picture doesn't prove it:

Image


I won't say it's necessarily a "frame design fault". There's only so much you can safely manipulate the tubing of the frame, and that chainstay has been curved for a reason.
So let's start with the first culprit: how are you cleats aligned, and especially do they follow the natural movement of your feet?
I.e. my feet are all but straight in their position, even in rest they are at least on "11:05am" o'clock, though not been as bad as "10:10am" they can be in the way of straight chainstays with narrow cranks, occasionally I've had the problem of heel-rubbing on track bikes, but would blame my feet before the frame :(

I'd first ask you to look critically at that lash up of a chainstay/dropout design in relation to the caliper siting,before we begin with cleat position.
It's a shambolic mess of a design IMHO that the manipulating of the chainstay would need less bend to it if the dropout was designed properly.
Last edited by reohn2 on 13 Jan 2018, 12:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gattonero
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby Gattonero » 13 Jan 2018, 12:58pm

CJ wrote:
Gattonero wrote:I won't say it's necessarily a "frame design fault". There's only so much you can safely manipulate the tubing of the frame, and that chainstay has been curved for a reason.

Yeah right, and it's manipulated a whole lot more than the other chainstay. And the reason: because the dropout is a stupid shape.


Yes and no.
Locating the caliper in between the stays has some adavantages, especially is mechanically sound with the frame. Also the caliper is in a more protected area and the housing can be easier to route. Plus that design does offer a better connection between dropout&tubing, as it's mitered and welded all around, rather than being slotted and brazed (which is also more time-consuming)

CJ wrote:
So let's start with the first culprit: how are you cleats aligned, and especially do they follow the natural movement of your feet?
I.e. my feet are all but straight in their position, even in rest they are at least on "11:05am" o'clock, though not been as bad as "10:10am" they can be in the way of straight chainstays with narrow cranks, occasionally I've had the problem of heel-rubbing on track bikes, but would blame my feet before the frame :(

You are familiar with the story of the Emperor's new clothes right?


No, but I know the one that "is always someone else's fault"
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Gattonero
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby Gattonero » 13 Jan 2018, 1:01pm

reohn2 wrote:
Gattonero wrote:
Phileas wrote:The left stay is definitely wider than on my previous disc bike although this picture doesn't prove it:



I won't say it's necessarily a "frame design fault". There's only so much you can safely manipulate the tubing of the frame, and that chainstay has been curved for a reason.
So let's start with the first culprit: how are you cleats aligned, and especially do they follow the natural movement of your feet?
I.e. my feet are all but straight in their position, even in rest they are at least on "11:05am" o'clock, though not been as bad as "10:10am" they can be in the way of straight chainstays with narrow cranks, occasionally I've had the problem of heel-rubbing on track bikes, but would blame my feet before the frame :(

I'd first ask you to look critically at that lash up of a chainstay/dropout design in relation to the caliper siting,before we begin with cleat position.
It's a shamblic mess of a design IMHO.


Though I agree that the bike has to be made to fit the rider, I'd like to know why would you judge that dropout as "shamblic mess of a design".
Please give detailed explanation for
-assembly of the bike and welding
-mechanically integrity with the chainstays
-fitting of the caliper and subsequent adjustment
-aesthetics
-ergonomy (in relation of the other things like chainstay length, crank length, foot length ans so on)
-etc

thanks
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

reohn2
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jan 2018, 1:03pm

Phileas wrote:
Image

BTW take a look were the heel is rubbing and tell me that couldn't be avoided with decent design,even with toes pointing out.
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Gattonero
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby Gattonero » 13 Jan 2018, 1:05pm

My everyday bike has a very similar dropout and my heels don't rub even with the chunky Shimano DX shoes and overshoes :wink:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

reohn2
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jan 2018, 1:11pm

Gattonero wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Gattonero wrote:
I won't say it's necessarily a "frame design fault". There's only so much you can safely manipulate the tubing of the frame, and that chainstay has been curved for a reason.
So let's start with the first culprit: how are you cleats aligned, and especially do they follow the natural movement of your feet?
I.e. my feet are all but straight in their position, even in rest they are at least on "11:05am" o'clock, though not been as bad as "10:10am" they can be in the way of straight chainstays with narrow cranks, occasionally I've had the problem of heel-rubbing on track bikes, but would blame my feet before the frame :(

I'd first ask you to look critically at that lash up of a chainstay/dropout design in relation to the caliper siting,before we begin with cleat position.
It's a shamblic mess of a design IMHO.


Though I agree that the bike has to be made to fit the rider, I'd like to know why would you judge that dropout as "shamblic mess of a design".
Please give detailed explanation for
-assembly of the bike and welding
-mechanically integrity with the chainstays
-fitting of the caliper and subsequent adjustment
-aesthetics
-ergonomy (in relation of the other things like chainstay length, crank length, foot length ans so on)
-etc

thanks


If the webbing of the casting was on the inside of the dropout,allowing the caliper to sit on top of the dropout,the bend to the d/out end of the chainstay wouldn't need to be so acute,allowing far more heel clearance where the OP's heel has rubbed the paint of it (see my previous post).
And there would still be plenty of room for a 160mm rotor.
This isn't rocket science and I don't need a degree in mechanical engineering to recognise an abortion of a design when I see one,and that is an abortion of a design YVMV mine won't.
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Gattonero
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby Gattonero » 13 Jan 2018, 2:30pm

According to the picture, it seems the shoe is rubbing just before the dropout, so there isn't much you can do unless you make a skewed dropout, which in turn will mess with the disk brake mount. It's not rocket science but frame engineering.
Not that I like the dropout anyway, in fact a single-speed should have sliders or rockers there, not vertical dropouts.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

Phileas
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby Phileas » 13 Jan 2018, 3:17pm

It's pretty obvious that the dropout could have been designed in such a way that the stay did not need to have such a severe bend on it.

However, it needs to be remembered that this frame was cheap - it's a Planet-X London Road and it cost me £150. For all we know P-X sourced a job-lot of cheap dropouts and designed the frame around them. :wink:

I wasn't expecting anything special but I was surprised that my heel sometimes rubs.

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Gattonero
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Re: Poor frame design?

Postby Gattonero » 13 Jan 2018, 3:30pm

Phileas wrote:...it's a Planet-X London Road and it cost me £150...


Bloody hell, you could have said this before! :lol: :lol: :lol:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...