TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

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climo
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby climo » 13 Feb 2018, 10:12am

Bez wrote:If this is a question of bite point rather than consistent power once applied:

The one difference between the brakes which I believe might allow you to get that balance spot on is that the Spyre allows infinite trimming of the pads via the piston adjusters whereas the Avid adjusters are stepped. Though note my earlier point that the Spyres are really sensitive, so it may be a mildly frustrating process. But in theory I guess you have a better shot at getting them biting precisely together. How well that translates to reality may be another matter.

If it's a question of consistent power then I can't see that changing calipers would (unless by luck) make any difference.

Guess that overall I'm better off staying with the BB7's especially given the suspect design of the Spyres. Thanks

pete75
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby pete75 » 13 Feb 2018, 11:34am

climo wrote:On my trike I can never quite get the BB7's to brake straight. I guess the pad spacing is just a tad different left to right plus the cable tension is different.
Would the dual piston Spyre work better? It strikes me that to set up both pads at the same distance from the disc is easier than the BB7's two different gaps. Two chances of misadjustment instead of four.


On my trike I can't get the BB7's to not brake straight. Even using one brake it stops in a moreless straight line. I'd prefer it if you could use the brakes for steering like with a tractor.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Feb 2018, 12:34pm

ehelifecycle wrote:Hi All

Who has used both and can say which is best for a touring bicycle?

I can get "TRP Spyre Alloy Mechanical Disc Brake calipers Front & Rear Pair with 160mm Rotor with Adapter Screws" £57.50 delivered.

or

BB7 disc brake clipers with HS1 disc rotors mtb (it states mountain bike I assume this doesn't matter) £45.84


Also looking to use with 105 STI triple shifters?

Any advice before buying would be great.

No one's addressed this point yet. I assume it would matter, because the mtb calipers will be set up for a different cable pull ratio (ie for flat bar levers not drops).

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RickH
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby RickH » 13 Feb 2018, 1:11pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
ehelifecycle wrote:Hi All

Who has used both and can say which is best for a touring bicycle?

I can get "TRP Spyre Alloy Mechanical Disc Brake calipers Front & Rear Pair with 160mm Rotor with Adapter Screws" £57.50 delivered.

or

BB7 disc brake clipers with HS1 disc rotors mtb (it states mountain bike I assume this doesn't matter) £45.84


Also looking to use with 105 STI triple shifters?

Any advice before buying would be great.

No one's addressed this point yet. I assume it would matter, because the mtb calipers will be set up for a different cable pull ratio (ie for flat bar levers not drops).

Yes it does matter & has been addressed (my bold)

Shuggie wrote:BB7 work well with 105 STIs, both double and triple 10 speed IME. NB, make sure you get the road version, not the MTB ones.

but it depends whether it is just rotors or both rotors & calliper that are MTB in the OP's question. Admittedly I think it is more likely to be the latter.

Brucey
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby Brucey » 13 Feb 2018, 1:50pm

Provided the caliper body does not stick out too far leftwards for you, I think the BB7 is the better choice overall. It is a well proven design. Nothing is perfect though; a potential weak spot is that the fixed pad adjuster is prone to seize unless it is treated with copper-ease once a year or so.

BTW the stepped adjustment on the FPA results in movements of ~55um per step. I don't think you could sensibly use a more precise adjustment than that.

cheers
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Stevek76
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby Stevek76 » 13 Feb 2018, 2:04pm

climo wrote:On my trike I can never quite get the BB7's to brake straight. I guess the pad spacing is just a tad different left to right plus the cable tension is different.
Would the dual piston Spyre work better? It strikes me that to set up both pads at the same distance from the disc is easier than the BB7's two different gaps. Two chances of misadjustment instead of four.


If by straight you mean that the wear on the pads is even then I'd agree with you, I don't think it's anything to do with only one pad moving though as

a) physics wise that doesn't really make much sense, there is no serious braking and therefore no serious wear until the two pads are pressing together and, due to third law, wear should then essentially be even to each pad; and,

b) I also have some shimano Cx77s (which I got for a rather bargainous £25/caliper off a german store while back, I'm not a weight weeny who'd pay ££s for saving 10g!) which are also single pad design and I have zero problems setting those up to brake straight and rub free. Unfortunately that design has other issues compared to bb7s, namely that the pad adjustment is not as easy, I'm fairly sure the static pad detents are not enough to stop it wandering (need to put a dab of paint on to confirm this) and that the moving pad adjustment really doesn't have the required adjustment range, the normal prices across that whole line also seem expensive for what you get.

The BB7 issues to me are twofold. First the pad springs are not symmetrical and the piston is similarly off centre so I think it likely clamps unevenly, wearing one 'end' faster, and then the springs don't push it back evenly, or very well, leaving it more likely to end up with an annoying 'thsing thisng thisng' sound.

Secondly the 'tri align system' which largely seems to consist of rounded washers that allow the caliper to sit at all sorts of angles to the mounting combined with the lopsided shoving of the pads means if you follow the clamp brakes and tighten routine it never seems to end up anywhere near straight. I'm sure it's useful if the bike mountings were miles out of line but if they're not (and I don't think many are these days) then it seems to only introduce error.

They're probably still the best overall though, which is somewhat remarkable given the age of the design.

Brucey
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby Brucey » 13 Feb 2018, 2:14pm

if you think that your frame is precisely milled, you can replace the BB7/BB5 curvy washers with a fixed (flat) spacer, or a stack of M6 washers etc, instead. Few frames are quite good enough, unless the mounts have been faced properly.

At risk of stating the b-obvious, regardless of what else is going on, the irritating tsing-tsing sound can only occur if the disc is not quite straight.

cheers
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Bez
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby Bez » 13 Feb 2018, 3:11pm

Brucey wrote:BTW the stepped adjustment on the FPA results in movements of ~55um per step. I don't think you could sensibly use a more precise adjustment than that.


Certainly I'd say the Spyre adjusters don't sensibly provide for it ;)

reohn2
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby reohn2 » 13 Feb 2018, 3:30pm

Ive run BB7's and Spykes(same as Spyre but with MTB cable pull).
They both brake well but I swapped the Spykes for BB7's mainly because I couldn't get them stop squealing when warm,like Brucey,I felt the detents on the adjusting screws weren't positive enough.
I was also familiar with BB7's on three other bikes one of those a tandem that we'd toured on and found to be excellent brakes.
IME Steve76's concerns are unfounded,the concave/convex washers and elongated slots in the calipers don't cause any problems with the caliper running skewed to the rotor,in fact quite the opposite(below I've written how I set BB7's from scratch)
I've never had a problem with the reaction arm returning to it's stop and releasing pads from the rotor to their set/adjusted position,and can confirm what Bruce's posted that the ts-ing is caused by an out of true rotor(my straighting procedure is also below).
There is definitely no problem with there being one fixed pad and one free,it doesn't affect braking in the slightest and is just as good the two moving pads on the Spyke/Spyre brakes.
The only fault I can find to with BB7's is that they stick out past the frame and fork veerryyy slightly,which in practice isn't a problem at all.

Set up for BB7's is a simple procedure to produce optimum braking and even pad wear:-
First slack off the caliper screws to the frame or adapter brackets until you can juusssttt wobble the caliper on the convex/concave washer assembleys and the caliper can be moved in and out on the elongated slots.
Next screw in both pad adjusters until they grip the rotor as if the the brake was on,but with the rotor in the centre of the caliper slot(Avid advise the rotor to be more to the moving pad side but I find that doesn't matter)
Now with the pads gripping the rotor tighten the previously slackened caliper bolts.
Next back off each adjuster equally until the wheel runs freely and there's an equal gap either side of the rotor.
Then and only then attach the cable to the reaction arm pulling on the free end of the cable with pliers but being careful not to disturb the reaction arm from is stop.
Try the brake by pulling hard on the lever and setting the cable outer in its stops,this may produce slack in the inner cable,take slack out by slacking off the pinch bolt and pulling any slack out of the inner as previously.
Check If the wheel still runs free,if so s check if you can get another click out of either adjuster without the rotor rubbing.If the rotors rubbing the pads back off a click,and check if the reaction arm is on it's stop and not being held of by the cable,it'd it is slack off the pinch bolt so the the arm goes to It's stop then retighten the pinch bolt.
The job is done for fitting.
Now ride the bike down the muckiest grittiest lane or track you can find and if necessary throw some sand and water on the caliper and pads then do some hard braking.This will bed the pads in PDQ :)

I prefer sintered pads as supplied with new BB7's as they last much longer than Organics.

If you have the ts-ing of an out of true rotor it's probably,unless really bent,within 0.75mm,and can be sraightened in situ with a small adjustable spanner by slowly turning to wheel to find where it's rubbing and on which pad.
The find the nearest rotor spoke,clamp the adjustable spanner onto it and gently ease it in the direction you want it to go until the rotor is straight,true and not rubbing.
NOTE:- this is a gentle and careful procedure that needs a leettle finesse,not a hamfisted grunt of a job,and needs a leettle practice to get the feel of.
Whatever you do,don't be tempted to try straightening the rotor by bending the rotor with the adjustable spanner clamped over the braking surface as this could buckle or kink the rotor's braking surface and make matters worse.

My 2d's worth
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Si
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby Si » 13 Feb 2018, 3:54pm

I ride mostly round city roads to the squealing is an advantage ;-) Although TBH I've not found that the BB7s do squeal that much unless they have the correct amount of damp on them.

I found that BB7s bedded in quicker...thus if you get on a new bike with Spykes don't worry if the brakes feel totally useless for the first few miles...they will improve.

Really wish though, that BB7s had two mounting points for the cable - that way you could swap between drop and V brake levers without having to buy a new calliper.

Phileas
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby Phileas » 13 Feb 2018, 6:29pm

I've just replaced my front Spyre caliper with a BB7 mainly because I was fed up with the self-adjustment on the Spyre.

I'm not sure what kind of pads are supplied with the BB7 (road) but from the sound I'm guessing they're semi-metallic.

Stevek76
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby Stevek76 » 13 Feb 2018, 6:35pm

Evidently YMMV. Regarding the slight rub, yes the rotor is a bit out of true (as said, obviously), but not a huge amount. The cx77s are significantly more tolerant to such matters than the bb7s ime. I'll have to try swapping the calipers around, it might be that the cleansweep G2 rotors on the bb7 fare worse under heavy braking than the shimano RT66s although they're also on my mtb which doesn't have an issue (avid hydraulics).

reohn2 wrote:Set up for BB7's is a simple procedure to produce optimum braking and even pad wear:-


Then lists about 8 steps. :P Hardly the apply brakes, tighten screws procedure that avid/sram advertise as all that needs doing :)

Personally I just went with a manual adjustment with the screws just slackened off to the state you mention in the first step but ultimately it can be seen just watching the brakes operate that they neither press straight nor retract as well as the cx77s do and they never have done, even when new.

Brucey
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby Brucey » 13 Feb 2018, 6:43pm

pete75 wrote:
climo wrote:On my trike I can never quite get the BB7's to brake straight. .


On my trike I can't get the BB7's to not brake straight. Even using one brake it stops in a moreless straight line. I'd prefer it if you could use the brakes for steering like with a tractor.


the contrast is, in good part, almost certainly because there is a difference in the steering geometry between the two machines. I'd guess that Pete75's machine has little or no 'scrub radius' but climo's machine doesn't.

IME if you have an appreciable amount of scrub radius then the machine will veer to one side if the brakes are out of balance. It will also tend to follow cambers, and pull to one side if one tyre is softer than the other one, that kind of thing.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

reohn2
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby reohn2 » 13 Feb 2018, 6:53pm

Stevek76 wrote: .......Then lists about 8 steps. :P ........

And takes about 15 to 20 minutes to initially set up.
Thereafter you have many thousands of miles of trouble free cycling with a click of the adjusters now and then :D
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climo
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Re: TRP Spyre Vs Avid BB7 mechanical disc brakes

Postby climo » 13 Feb 2018, 7:00pm

Brucey wrote:
pete75 wrote:
climo wrote:On my trike I can never quite get the BB7's to brake straight. .


On my trike I can't get the BB7's to not brake straight. Even using one brake it stops in a moreless straight line. I'd prefer it if you could use the brakes for steering like with a tractor.


the contrast is, in good part, almost certainly because there is a difference in the steering geometry between the two machines. I'd guess that Pete75's machine has little or no 'scrub radius' but climo's machine doesn't.

IME if you have an appreciable amount of scrub radius then the machine will veer to one side if the brakes are out of balance. It will also tend to follow cambers, and pull to one side if one tyre is softer than the other one, that kind of thing.

cheers

Now you've lost me. :(
I've got an HP Velotechnik Scorpion 20in full suspension. Different steering design than an ICE trike if that helps. Yes it does follow cambers