Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

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Tomred
Posts: 13
Joined: 6 Oct 2019, 9:37pm

Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby Tomred » 6 Oct 2019, 10:01pm

Hi,
I've been searching for compatible flat bar shifters for a Shimano R7000. I have not found anything that says they are categorically compatible. The closest I can find is these rapid fire https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/105-5800/SL-RS700.html but they say there are for the 5800 series. Does anyone have any idea if these would work?

TL; DR
My Boardman hybrid Pro 2014 and I have put a lot of miles in and there a bit of wear and tear. It has a 105 5700 derailleur and FSA compact double. I'd like to upgrade the gearing. The 5800 series would be the obvious choice but I'm struggling to find parts apart from the above shifters.

Brucey
Posts: 35624
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby Brucey » 6 Oct 2019, 10:54pm

5800 has been superseded by R7000 series.

You can look in the shimano compatibility tables to see which shifters will work with which mechs,
https://www.celebrazio.net/bicycling/shimano/2019_compatibility.html
but IIRC all 'road' 11s stuff is compatible at the rear, so RS700 shifters will work with any 11s 'road' rear mech.

What it isn't compatible with is most 10s stuff (NB 4700 series is different to every other 10s and has the same RD shift ratio as 11s) . Nor can you fit any old 11s cassette onto 10s hubs. One of the few 11s cassettes which does fit 10s freehubs is CS-HG700-11 (11-34T).

Some options
a) (with 10s hub) CS-HG700-11, any 'road' 11s rear mech (which will take a 34T sprocket), SL-RS700 , FD to suit
b) (with 10s hub) 10s cassette, RD-4700 (or any 11s 'road' RD), Tiagra Sl-4700 series 10s flat bar shifters, FD to suit
c) (with an 11s compatible hub) Any 'road' 11s cassette, plus 11s RD and shifters, FD to suit

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

thelawnet
Posts: 2217
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby thelawnet » 7 Oct 2019, 4:04pm

Brucey wrote:5800 has been superseded by R7000 series.

You can look in the shimano compatibility tables to see which shifters will work with which mechs,
https://www.celebrazio.net/bicycling/shimano/2019_compatibility.html
but IIRC all 'road' 11s stuff is compatible at the rear, so RS700 shifters will work with any 11s 'road' rear mech.


I'm not quite clear from the OP's post the motivation to upgrade, but he currently has:

* flat-bar 'old 10-speed road ratio' Shimano shifter
* 'old 10-speed road ratio' Shimano rear derailleur
* an FSA Gossamer Pro 50/34 PF30 chainset
* a 12-30t cassette
* Deore hydraulic brakes (no idea if these are the MTB or Touring type)
* Shimano WH-RX05 disc rear wheel

The exactly compatible shifters with this are only Sl-R780, and sl-r460. I am not clear which he has at the moment, but both are quite nice being equivalent to Deore XT and just above SLX respectively. (the sl-4700 is similar to sl-r460 in that respect). But the pull ratio they used seems a poor design choice, so it might be as well to replace the rear derailleur as well.

He could also go for MTB 10-speed shifters, which would likely work without changing the current FD, and a 10-speed MTB rear derailleur.

He also the option of changing just the right-hand shifter and rear derailleur, if the left/front are still serviceable.

I quite like the option of buying rd-4700 (or any 11s road rd) and a right-hand sl-4700 shifter, in the case that the front shifting is still ok.

Tomred
Posts: 13
Joined: 6 Oct 2019, 9:37pm

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby Tomred » 10 Oct 2019, 8:24am

Thanks for the replies. I didn't turn on notification hence the slow reply.

My motivation is to slowly replace the whole groupset. My existing 10 speed works but newer (Shimano) gears are 11. I'm hoping to replace the chainset first but I am concerned that the existing shifters won't work so thought I might have to wait till I've bought all the parts before replacing the lot. I spent a few hours trawling sites to find R7000 series parts. All those shifters are for drop handlebars and I've flat handlebars.

Perhaps I should rephrase the question into "how might I move my existing groupset over to a newer Shimano R7000 Series and keep my flat handle bars". I think I need a BB convertor too as the FSA chainset says its BB30.
Thanks in advance,
Dermot

ElCani
Posts: 145
Joined: 5 Mar 2015, 11:24am

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby ElCani » 10 Oct 2019, 8:30am

If your only reason to upgrade is to gain an extra sprocket on your cassette, I think you are probably making a mistake. If your current 10 speed system works (and you say it does), there is very little to be gained (and lots of money to be spent) converting to 11 speed vs simply buying a new cassette, chain, jockey wheels and chainrings, assuming they are worn.

Brucey
Posts: 35624
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby Brucey » 10 Oct 2019, 11:02am

Tomred wrote:
My motivation is to slowly replace the whole groupset.


that is not so much a motivation as a means to an end. It is not clear what the end is.

FWIW you will be able to buy 10s stuff for many years yet; probably about as easily as 11s stuff I expect. In the next couple of years the racing world will probably move on to 12 speed and 11s will -in some people's eyes- just be (yet another) obsolete system.

You shouldn't get obsessed with getting R7000 flat bar shifters; just look at the compatibility chart I linked to and you will see what is designed to work with what. The compatibility chart is published by shimano (its just that their copy is buried in their crappy website so you can't find it so easily, whereas the one I have linked to is more accessible) and if they say it will work it is designed to work and will work perfectly.

FWIW in use, there are only two significant differences between 10s and 11s;

1) the cables are slightly more reliable in 11s (and 4700 series 10s) because of the different shift ratio and
2) there is either a wider gear range or gears that are a bit closer together in 11s vs 10s

I would not change the whole system to gain either 'benefit', so slight is it. However if the RD was worn already and the shifters broke, I'd consider changing to 4700 series shifters and mechs at that point.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

thelawnet
Posts: 2217
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby thelawnet » 10 Oct 2019, 6:13pm

R7000 is either flat-mount hydraulic discs, hydraulic brifters, and R7000 derailleurs, or it is caliper brakes, brifters and the same derailleurs. It is not a flat bar system.

You will not be able to move to R7000, because you have MTB disc brakes and flat bars, which preclude this.

In addition, your bottom bracket is not a Shimano system, so it is not clear that it would make any sense to try to switch to Shimano using an adapter, instead of just replacing with a compatible SRAM/FSA chainset that is designed for BB30/PF30.

Suggest:

* maintaining/replacing the chainset/bb with similar (not Shimano) when it wears out.

* keep 10 speed chain + cassette (replace both if they are worn)
* keep the current brakes, maintain as necessary
* consider rear derailleurs: RX800 is ultegra-class 'gravel', RX810 is a new gravel design with bigger jockey wheels, and RX400 is similar to RX800 but with cheaper jockey wheels. R8000 is the best choice for on-road, and if you want a cheaper option then 4700 or R7000 is the way to go. Both are inferior to R8000, however. R7000 is maybe slightly lighter, and a different shape, compared to 4700.
* buy the 4700 right shifter to go with any of those r/ds
* if you buy the 4700 left shifter then you will want to replace your front derailleur with an fd-4700, and only this model.

Everything else you want to do you should forget about.

Tomred
Posts: 13
Joined: 6 Oct 2019, 9:37pm

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby Tomred » 10 Oct 2019, 11:04pm

Wow thanks guys. There a lot to take in there. I'll leave the shifters out of the equation. I started down this road because my gearing is not as smooth as it used to be. I replaced the outter ring on my FSA about 4 months ago and its got chipped and worn teeth already. To be fair I cycled from London to Amsterdam in June so that and my usual 16 miles to/from work may explain it. Still the previous one lasted 4 years. Someone descibed FSA chainset as made of cheese today.
So I want improved gearing. My day to day cycling is all road. The chainring needs replacing. It's really worn. What's more the crank arms are 175. I'm 5'9 and I have a feeling that may be contributing to the pain I get in my pelvis/buttock from time to time (sorry tmi there). I suspect my BB is not in great shape. So a crank with 172.5 or 170 would be better fit.
I'll get that R8000 derailleur.

The other factor, I want to spend money on my bike. I have a bond with her and I want her in as good a shape as I can.

I'm other news, I went to the London bicycle Kitchen today and spent 2 hours replacing my headset (and a few other tweaks) . All the bearing were completely rusted. My poor baby need some TLC.

Tomred
Posts: 13
Joined: 6 Oct 2019, 9:37pm

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby Tomred » 10 Oct 2019, 11:14pm

Regarding derailleur, my current one is an RD5701, 10 speed as you know. Are you saying I can swap it for this 11 speed https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/derailleurs-rear/shimano-ultegra-rx-rdrx800-rear-derailleur-shadowplus-gs-medium-cage/
Thanks again.

ElCani
Posts: 145
Joined: 5 Mar 2015, 11:24am

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby ElCani » 11 Oct 2019, 6:18am

Tomred wrote:Regarding derailleur, my current one is an RD5701, 10 speed as you know. Are you saying I can swap it for this 11 speed https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/derailleurs-rear/shimano-ultegra-rx-rdrx800-rear-derailleur-shadowplus-gs-medium-cage/
Thanks again.


You cannot use an 11 speed mech without changing your shifters. Any Shimano 10 speed road mech apart from Tiagra 4700 series will work.

thelawnet
Posts: 2217
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby thelawnet » 11 Oct 2019, 10:24am

Tomred wrote:Wow thanks guys. There a lot to take in there. I'll leave the shifters out of the equation. I started down this road because my gearing is not as smooth as it used to be. I replaced the outter ring on my FSA about 4 months ago and its got chipped and worn teeth already. To be fair I cycled from London to Amsterdam in June so that and my usual 16 miles to/from work may explain it. Still the previous one lasted 4 years. Someone descibed FSA chainset as made of cheese today.

So I want improved gearing. My day to day cycling is all road. The chainring needs replacing. It's really worn. What's more the crank arms are 175. I'm 5'9 and I have a feeling that may be contributing to the pain I get in my pelvis/buttock from time to time (sorry tmi there). I suspect my BB is not in great shape. So a crank with 172.5 or 170 would be better fit.


You can check for play in the bottom bracket by seeing if the crank wobbles, and by removing the chain (doesn't need to be from the bike, just from the chainring) and seeing how smooth the crank is. Also if you are getting creaking during riding.

There is a long video about the merits (or otherwise) of PF30 here



I don't think there is anything wrong with FSA, so you might want to check the specific chainrings that have been fitted. I think you have a standard 110mm BCD 5-bolt design.

However if you want shorter crank arms (I don't think 172.5mm is a good idea or noticeably different), then you could very well change the whole shebang including bb. There are options for cranksets including Praxis Alba, Truvativ, SRAM, FSA and Shimano with an adapter

I'll get that R8000 derailleur.


If you change the rear derailleur for an 11-speed one then you will need to change the right shifter for a 4700 shifter, as it is the only 10-speed shifter that uses 11-speed pull ratios.

There are advantages to the 11-speed pull ratio, which are the same whether you use a 10-speed shifter or 11-speed.

Of course if you really want to spend money then you can go for the RS700 11-speed shifters, 11-speed cassette (and possibly new wheel or new freehub depending on your options), 11-speed front derailleur and at that point your new crankset purchase would be best as an 11-speed. But that's not going to really make your bike work any better than it would using 4700 shifters + staying as 10-speed.

But maybe if you are changing everything anyway, you can go for 11-speed, just be aware that chains and cassettes will then be more expensive to no real gain.

Tomred
Posts: 13
Joined: 6 Oct 2019, 9:37pm

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby Tomred » 11 Oct 2019, 1:09pm

I don't see many options when I search for Shimano 10 speed road derailleur, that why I keep heading towards 11 speed. There's this https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-ultegra-6700-rear-derailleur-grey-56074.html one. There are several Shinamo XT varieties but if I am reading that compatibility chart https://www.celebrazio.net/bicycling/shimano/2019_compatibility.html correctly, they wont work.

If I stick to that chart I could get
1 x https://www.merlincycles.com/praxis-bb30-bottom-bracket-conversion-93683.html
1 x https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-105-fc-5800-road-bike-chainset-black-72363.html

My thought process is that If I can stick to the same manufacturer and series, things will "just work".
Does those purchases seem sane?

thelawnet
Posts: 2217
Joined: 27 Aug 2010, 12:56am

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby thelawnet » 11 Oct 2019, 3:15pm

Tomred wrote:I don't see many options when I search for Shimano 10 speed road derailleur, that why I keep heading towards 11 speed.


Derailleurs don't really have 'speeds', they are just a moving cage. The 'speeds' are in the shifter, which has that number of indexed stops.

What matters is that a shifter will pull a given amount of cable, and the derailleur moves a corresponding amount.

For road there are essentially two ratios - 1.7:1 (sold as 6, 7, 8, 9-speed, and all 10-speed except GRX and Tiagra 4700) and 1.4:1 (10-speed GRX and Tiagra 4700 and all 11-speed).
And for MTB there are three ratios 1.7:1 (7, 8, 9 speed), 1.2:1 (10-speed) and 1.1:1 (11 and 12-speed)

As the number of cogs increases on the cassette, the spacing decreases. So generally it's better to use a lower pull ratio, which for road means 1.4:1, because it's easier to setup and keep nicely aligned.

Your current shifters will work with a MTB 7/8/9-speed or road 7/8/9-speed rd, or any 'road' 10-speed RD except GRX or 4700.

However if you are going to replace things you might as well go for the 1.4:1 type RD, i.e. 4700, 10-speed GRX or 11-speed road/gravel rd.

If you replace your r/d for one with a different ratio you then need a matching right shifter.

Note that f/ds also use different pull ratios between MTB & road. I am not sure if these are fully documented anywhere, but they follow the same pattern as the rear - whereby Shimano updated the pull ratio between 10-speed and 11-speed for road, and then for new iterations of 10-speed released after 11-speed used the 11-speed version as we ll.


If you replace your current shifters with the only available flat-bar 1.4:1 shifters, that is SL-4700, and install any 1.4:1 rear derailleur, then it might be that you can make your current old ratio FD work well with the new shifters, since you only have two chain rings to deal with. However, it might be just as easy to buy FD-4700 (£20) at the same time as you replace the shifters and rear derailleur.

There's this https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-ultegra-6700-rear-derailleur-grey-56074.html one. There are several Shinamo XT varieties but if I am reading that compatibility chart https://www.celebrazio.net/bicycling/shimano/2019_compatibility.html correctly, they wont work.

If I stick to that chart I could get
1 x https://www.merlincycles.com/praxis-bb30-bottom-bracket-conversion-93683.html
1 x https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-105-fc-5800-road-bike-chainset-black-72363.html

My thought process is that If I can stick to the same manufacturer and series, things will "just work".
Does those purchases seem sane?


If you are going to install a new chainset you might consider if the gearing is correct? Also note that it's not clear if there is any real difference between 10-speed and 11-speed chainsets (the chains and cassettes are a different matter), but you might or might not want to buy an 11-speed crankset for a 10-speed bike.

As far as Shimano cranksets go, I think they are a bit of a muchness - Dura-Ace & Ultegra have hollow outer chain rings, which saves off some meaningless amount of grams, Dura-Ace, Ultegra & 105 have hollow crank arms shaving off a bit more grams, and then Tiagra and RS-510 lack those things, with Tiagra '10 speed' and RS-510 '11-speed'. There's around 190 grams difference between Tiagra/RS-510 and 105, and 40 (!) grams between 105 and Ultegra.

I would probably be fitting this chainset, myself

https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-10 ... 46227.html

In this case you would obviously need the matching 4703 shifter and front derailleur.

ElCani
Posts: 145
Joined: 5 Mar 2015, 11:24am

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby ElCani » 11 Oct 2019, 3:41pm

If you do decide you want to change to 4700 shifters, someone is selling a set (for a triple chainset) for £35 posted. On the bits for sale forum.

Tomred
Posts: 13
Joined: 6 Oct 2019, 9:37pm

Re: Suitable R7000 flat bar shifters

Postby Tomred » 11 Oct 2019, 3:53pm

Interesting, you've both suggest triples cranksets. I thought the current tread was a single with 11 speed. I do about 80% of my riding on the outer ring (50t) and I had been wondering if I might be able to get away with a single chainset.

[still digesting the ratios and options]