Seized hub nuts/cones

[kylecycler]

As drossall just said, all is probably not lost!

From the photo, the hub looks identical to the hub on my Carrera TdF - same large conical rubber seal, same hub shell shape. There's no branding on mine either although my Carrera Subway has Quando moulded into the rubber seals and I'm almost certain they're both made by Quando - both have the same small circular rubber seal that slides over the drive side cone and butts up against the locknut washer (narrow end to the washer), which might be the piece you're referring to.

I've serviced hubs often but I couldn't get the cone separated from the locknut on the front hub and even though I used a cone spanner on the cone and a ring spanner on the locknut I rounded the locknut, so I had to just leave it and loosen the other side instead. It doesn't matter which cone you loosen anyway, especially on the front axle - you only need to loosen one to remove the axle. If I had my time over again, though, I'd use penetrant spray first.

Last time I overhauled the hubs, even though they'd been well greased and properly adjusted, the rear cones were slightly pitted. I bought a replacement axle (branded Weldtite) with cones and bearings at Halfords, figuring that they might be most likely to match (you can get them all over Amazon and Ebay, but Halfords is easier if there's one local to you). The face of the cones is longer, although the body looks the same length, but I think they just extend further under the balls so there may be no effective difference - the profile looks the same. I'll give them a try and report back when I've time - I could also post photos.

Basically, as long as the cups aren't pitted - they'd have to be awful far gone for that, I think - all you should need is the new axle set, i.e. axle with cones and ball bearings etc.

Don't buy this yet until I let you know if it works, although I think it should (Note: 140mm axle length, not 145mm which is also available):

https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bike-p ... 07774.html

If you don't have a local Halfords I'll post links to the same from elsewhere online, but like I said wait till I let you know.

I'm guessing you'd find the axle has loose ball bearings, not cages as in the replacement set. If you use the cages you'd have to remove and reinstall the dust caps, but that's quite easy on these hubs - you just use a small open ended spanner to gently lever them out then press them back in with your thumbs and/or tap them in with the end of a screwdriver or whatever - unlike some, as long as you're careful they don't distort. Or you could use new 1/4 inch loose balls without removing the dust caps (although it's a lot easier to clean out the old grease if you do remove them).

I'll get back to you.

[Mike Sales]

It is always best to lock the RH cone absolutely securely.
One old type of fronr hub had a shoulder on the RH side so that it was impossible for the cone to precess inwards.
The LH side had no lock nut, it was held against precession outwards by the wheel nut. Moving outwards would loosen the bearing, but at least not destroy it.

[kylecycler]

It is always best to lock the RH cone absolutely securely.
One old type of fronr hub had a shoulder on the RH side so that it was impossible for the cone to precess inwards.
The LH side had no lock nut, it was held against precession outwards by the wheel nut. Moving outwards would loosen the bearing, but at least not destroy it.

I always lock the cone and locknut well but I was talking about loosening the cone/locknut on the front hub for the first time to service it - they were well stuck together.

I'm quite sure my Carlton 531 Ten had that type of front hub - the dropouts are kind of keyhole shaped and I believe you had to spring the fork legs to fit/remove the wheel - is this what you mean?

[Mike Sales]

It is always best to lock the RH cone absolutely securely.
One old type of fronr hub had a shoulder on the RH side so that it was impossible for the cone to precess inwards.
The LH side had no lock nut, it was held against precession outwards by the wheel nut. Moving outwards would loosen the bearing, but at least not destroy it.

I always lock the cone and locknut well but I was talking about loosening the cone/locknut on the front hub for the first time to service it - they were well stuck together.

I'm quite sure my Carlton 531 Ten had that type of front hub - the dropouts are kind of keyhole shaped and I believe you had to spring the fork legs to fit/remove the wheel - is this what you mean?

Yes. Do I remember a short, thin flange on the cone which fitted into the keyhole? I had forgotten the keyhole until you reminded me.

[kylecycler]

Yes. Do I remember a short, thin flange on the cone which fitted into the keyhole? I had forgotten the keyhole until you reminded me.

Yes, I think the cone had a 'shoulder', or maybe both did, but only the left hand cone was adjustable. I don't remember - I never got as far as servicing my front hub on the Carlton and I only have the frame and fork now - the rest got thrown out years ago. But I was round the houses trying to find out why the dropouts were shaped like that. I'll need to figure out a solution for how to fit a 'regular' wheel when I build it back up (eventually!) - got various options but I'll leave that for another thread!

[Jdsk]

But I was round the houses trying to find out why the dropouts were shaped like that.

Raleigh front hubs, with and without the keyhole:
https://sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html#raleigh

Jonathan

[kylecycler]

But I was round the houses trying to find out why the dropouts were shaped like that.

Raleigh front hubs, with and without the keyhole:
https://sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html#raleigh

Jonathan

Thanks. I didn't actually find that, or much even on here although I should have asked. It's more a case of working out how best to fit a regular axle into the dropouts, but I don't want to derail doffcocker's thread so I'll cross that bridge when I come to it and discuss it on here then.

[doffcocker]

Thanks all for your more recent replies, I have been really encouraged by your responses.

Where things are as it stands, I have been riding the bike for a couple weeks or so to trial the overall performance since replacing bearings and piecing everything back together.

I've concluded anyway that no matter how much I try to tune the cones, I'm just not reaching a balance between stable wheel (no play) and the wheel moving freely.

So I have ordered a new 140/10mm axle and some decent cone spanners and starting again.

My main concern is that I've noticed that how things currently stand, there is no play in the wheel, the wheel seems to spin freely when spun by hand, but it's only when out on the road and pedalling that there's some definite resistance, and pedalling uphill is more challenging than it previously has been.

Is there any indication in that of hub damage, or is it still just a case of working on the cones to get the balance right?

[slowster]

So I have ordered a new 140/10mm axle and some decent cone spanners and starting again.

I presume that you have ordered an axle that comes with cones and locknuts, and that you intend to bin the existing axle with its seized locknut and cone. I would advise against trying to undo them with your new cone spanners, because if you do there is a good chance that you will destroy the spanners. Cone spanners are necessarily quite thin to fit the narrow flats of a cone, and in my experience are not substantial enough to cope with a very badly seized locknut and cone; instead the jaws of the cone spanner are more likely to permanently deform.

...it's only when out on the road and pedalling that there's some definite resistance, and pedalling uphill is more challenging than it previously has been

Is there any indication in that of hub damage, or is it still just a case of working on the cones to get the balance right?

You certainly should not ride the bike again while it is like that, so you may as well take the axle out now and check the condition of the bearings and cups.

[kylecycler]

When you replace the cones and ball bearings, the only way the hub can be damaged would be if the cups are pitted and tbh I've never seen a hub that's that far gone, or at least, I think it's the last thing to go. The 'cups' are the interior of the hub that the balls run against - in other words, the balls are sandwiched between the cups and the cones.

When you next strip the hub, if you can, gently prise out the covers and inspect the cups (the covers should be easy enough to carefully lever out without you distorting them - I use a small open ended spanner - then they just press back in with your thumbs (or you might need to just gently tap them in with something), flush with the edge of the hub. If your hub is the same as mine (I think it is), the covers aren't as easy to distort as on other hubs I've worked on. Unless the cups are damaged, though (least likely, I think), the roughness you're feeling should just be because the cones and/or balls are pitted (or your axle might be bent, as I think you suspect) but you're also replacing that anyway).

Sorry I didn't get back to you about trying out the Halfords/Weldtite axle and cones - tbh the original cones and balls on my Carrera TdF's rear hub still have plenty of life in them so I'm a bit reluctant to try to fix it when it ain't broken, if you see what I mean! I could still try them out, though, and if I do I'll let you know. But if you get stuck, get back to us and we'll try to help you out (preferably post a photo of what you're stuck at if you can).

Good that you've ordered proper cone spanners. Some have handles but the ones I have are double ended and they're quite sore on your hands when you're either loosening the cone/locknut or locking them back together. I put a stout gardening/work glove on the hand that's holding the cone spanner, which makes things easier. The ones you've ordered might have handles, though, so if that's the case you won't need to do that.

One thing you'll learn, generally, is that a bike isn't a bike as such (or even a wheel isn't a wheel!), it's just a bunch of bits - replace the bits that are worn and even if it finishes up like Trigger's Broom it can still be as good as new!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yN2zHtofM&t=121s

[doffcocker]

You certainly should not ride the bike again while it is like that, so you may as well take the axle out now and check the condition of the bearings and cups.

Oh god you have terrified me now, what are the actual implications?

[doffcocker]

One thing you'll learn, generally, is that a bike isn't a bike as such (or even a wheel isn't a wheel!), it's just a bunch of bits - replace the bits that are worn and even if it finishes up like Trigger's Broom it can still be as good as new!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yN2zHtofM&t=121s

Very helpful, encouraging words again, thanks a lot.

[doffcocker]

You certainly should not ride the bike again while it is like that, so you may as well take the axle out now and check the condition of the bearings and cups.

Oh god you have terrified me now, what are the actual implications?
[/quote]

Sorry I realise you already mentioned previously about the cone self tightening while riding and crushing the bearings.

[doffcocker]

Few pictures of the hub, cups, bearings, “the black rubber bit”, etc.

[doffcocker]

.....