Single panniers, pedal bearings, saddles and leg pain

[Benethi]

Hi,

When riding to work etc I usually have one pannier on the right hand side. Is this liable to do any damage?
I have noticed that I seem to always destroy the bearings on my left hand pedal at a rather rapid rate. I replaced my M520s back at the end of March, and within four months or so/1500 miles, they'd gone again (left hand pedal creaks / clicks continuously under pressure). As far as I can tell they are not (easily) user-servicable, which means yet another set...I'm tempted to take them back but for the sneaky suspicion that it's my 'fault'.

My Brooks saddle is also heavily indented on the left hand side.

I have two theories to this. One is that it is due to my pannier being on the right hand side, leading to me having to put more weight on the left to balance it. This seems the obvious explanation.

The other is that I am naturally putting more force (or doing something else weird) through my left hand side regardless of panniers. This is backed up by the fact that I've had problems with pedal bearings going back 15 years, long before I used panniers - but I don't know whether it was specifically the left hand side, nor do I know for certain that it was even pedal bearings that were the problem; I've only realised that this seems likely due to having had what seems to be exactly the same problem on my 'new' bike. When I first bought my old bike (15 years ago), I was told by the bike shop that the problem was the pedals, but then kept having the same problem with every set that they/I put on it, hence thought it was something else - now I'm wondering if I was just destroying them at a rediculously rapid rate.

Incidentally, I've had problems with chronic pain in my lower left leg pretty much since I learnt to walk, which as yet no doctor has ever been able to diagnose and I've found absolutely no explanation for. I'm wondering if this is linked to the problems I've had with my pedals (and now my saddle). If so this could be a potentially life changing revelation!

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ben

[Heltor Chasca]

Fascinating. When I am riding with 1 pannier I put it on the right so I am creating a larger obstacle for cars to drive round but more importantly so when I park I lean the bike on the pannier rather than scratch the paintwork.

I'm looking forward to the wise-ones' theories...b

[Samuel D]

An idea in another direction: are you parking your bicycle in such a way that more water gets into the left pedal when it rains?

[Benethi]

Fascinating. When I am riding with 1 pannier I put it on the right so I am creating a larger obstacle for cars to drive round

That being the same reason I put it on the right - I do find I get a lot more space due to the perceived extra width

but more importantly so when I park I lean the bike on the pannier rather than scratch the paintwork.

I'm confused by this one though! having the pannier on the left would surely be more useful for this?!
Although on the flip side having it on the right also means that I can easily stop, lean the bike against a wall, and open to the pannier.

An idea in another direction: are you parking your bicycle in such a way that more water gets into the left pedal when it rains?

Very rarely park the bike in the rain, and only for short periods. It's underground at work and beyond the occasional brief stop at Aldi en-route back I avoid leaving it anywhere unsheltered/insecure!

[Brucey]

OK first the pedals;

PD-M520s have two things about them you need to know;

1) the left pedal bearing tends to tighten up all by itself (and the right bearing loosen similarly) and
2) the pedal bearings are very easy to access and adjust, using TL-PD40 (costs £1.99!) and a couple of spanners.

The correct procedure (and more) is given here

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=66078

Normally the loosening/tightening thing happens once and then (after you have adjusted them correctly) they stay good for ages. However if you pedal very forcefully it is possible that the bearings will persistently loosen/tighten. In this case use a little threadlock on the cone and locknut when you adjust the pedals and this will see you right.

The other stuff;
it is possible that your bike won't go in a straight line (quite) even when it is uniformly loaded, because the tracking is wrong. However it is virtually certain that this is the case if you use one pannier, well loaded. I think it is best if you use two panniers or a rack top bag if you are carrying any real load. Check the frame tracking using string (Colin did a good post on this) and/or have someone ride behind you and see if your wheels really follow one another or not.

Your legs may be different lengths, or you may have a camber problem in one foot and not the other, or your cleats might just be set wrong.... I could go on.... there are lots of possibilities here. Start with the simple stuff like checking leg length and cleat position first. If the wear mark on the shoe is lopsided w.r.t. the cleat, it means the cleat isn't set quite right and this can cause you to work hard with supporting muscles when you shouldn't have to, e.g. to stop the foot from tilting outwards. (Shoes with soles that are not stiff enough are bad too.) Something similar can happen if your shoe needs a camber correction too. If you have wide feet or feet that splay outwards slightly it may well be that you would benefit from pedal extenders and then repositioned cleats.

I would suggest that you get a full bike-fit but in some cases this will be used as an excuse to try and sell you a load of new stuff that you might not need or really benefit from unless you are intending to ride for extended periods or in competition. So if you are not planning to do those things then in the first instance I'd suggest trying some simple stuff and see how you go with it.

cheers

[Heltor Chasca]

but more importantly so when I park I lean the bike on the pannier rather than scratch the paintwork.

I'm confused by this one though! having the pannier on the left would surely be more useful for this?!

Because a post, tree etc will scratch the right hand side of the bike when leant against it, so I use the 'more disposable' pannier. I also lean the bike on it's right hand side so if it falls over it can only fall onto it's left side so the dérailleur doesn't get damaged. Hopefully!

[pwa]

I've never thought about this before, but I can see how a bike with one heavy pannier could make you ride with more weight on one pedal than the other. But I also naturally produce slightly unequal dimples in leather saddles, simply because I am not symmetrical. In spite of habitually using one pannier (always right side) I have never worn out the bearings of a Shimano pedal.

[ljamesbee]

Very interesting, I had never thought that this might affect the pedals and saddle.

I used to commute every day with one heavy pannier. I would put it on the right size so that the reflective part of the bag would be more visible for cars. Also because I tended to lock my bike up one way so the bag was more easily accessible that way.

I think it is certainly possible that this could be because of the bag, you do ride slightly slanted with a heavy bag on one side. Could it also be because of your positioning when stopped and starting off? When holding the bike at a traffic light for example, you need to adjust how you start off to counter the weight of the bag. Could this be the cause? Do you notice any difference in tyre wear on one side?

After some time, I was loading so much stuff into the one bag, I just had to give up on this approach and started using two bags. I certainly noticed that I enjoyed the ride more when I began using two roughly equal bags. Perhaps I did less mileage like this as I did not encounter any such problems like those you have experienced. Sounds like it may be something else. May be a silly suggestion, but everyone has one leg longer than the other? Could it be something as simple as this?

[Benethi]

but more importantly so when I park I lean the bike on the pannier rather than scratch the paintwork.

I'm confused by this one though! having the pannier on the left would surely be more useful for this?!

Because a post, tree etc will scratch the right hand side of the bike when leant against it, so I use the 'more disposable' pannier. I also lean the bike on it's right hand side so if it falls over it can only fall onto it's left side so the dérailleur doesn't get damaged. Hopefully!

Usually I'd lean the bike on the left hand side as I'm on the left hand side of the road, so unless I turn the bike around, I'm far more likely to have something to lean it on that way...but understand what you mean about the derailleur.

OK first the pedals;

PD-M520s have two things about them you need to know;

1) the left pedal bearing tends to tighten up all by itself (and the right bearing loosen similarly) and
2) the pedal bearings are very easy to access and adjust, using TL-PD40 (costs £1.99!) and a couple of spanners.

The correct procedure (and more) is given here

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=66078

Thanks!
didn't realise that, will definitely get a tool ordered.

The other stuff;
it is possible that your bike won't go in a straight line (quite) even when it is uniformly loaded, because the tracking is wrong. However it is virtually certain that this is the case if you use one pannier, well loaded. I think it is best if you use two panniers or a rack top bag if you are carrying any real load.

a single pannier for me is certainly the most convenient option - there's not normally that much in it (lunch, a change of clothes, a small D-lock if I'm expecting to stop, and then a bit of shopping on the odd occasion that I stop en-route back) and maybe I'm mistaken but I tend to think any rack bag would be a) too small and b) dead awkward to carry around Aldi...
My best option is perhaps to use two panniers, and just leave the lock in the left hand one so that it always stays with the bike.

Check the frame tracking using string (Colin did a good post on this) and/or have someone ride behind you and see if your wheels really follow one another or not

The tracking issue confuses me, but I don't think is a problem (sounds like the pannier will have had more effect than any slight problem here). I'll look into it anyhow.

Your legs may be different lengths, or you may have a camber problem in one foot and not the other, or your cleats might just be set wrong.... I could go on.... there are lots of possibilities here. Start with the simple stuff like checking leg length and cleat position first. If the wear mark on the shoe is lopsided w.r.t. the cleat, it means the cleat isn't set quite right and this can cause you to work hard with supporting muscles when you shouldn't have to, e.g. to stop the foot from tilting outwards. (Shoes with soles that are not stiff enough are bad too.) Something similar can happen if your shoe needs a camber correction too. If you have wide feet or feet that splay outwards slightly it may well be that you would benefit from pedal extenders and then repositioned cleats.

I would suggest that you get a full bike-fit but in some cases this will be used as an excuse to try and sell you a load of new stuff that you might not need or really benefit from unless you are intending to ride for extended periods or in competition. So if you are not planning to do those things then in the first instance I'd suggest trying some simple stuff and see how you go with it.

cheers

I think my bike fit is generally quite reasonable. I've ridden in enough different positions to know what suits me, and have slowly honed my seat/handlebar height / stem length etc. such that I know where it's most comfortable. Mostly I'm happy with my cleat position (I've had trouble before when they weren't correct).
I saw a physio a couple of years ago who said I didn't have any major difference in leg length.

Generally, I don't think there are any issues with the bike itself, the question is more one of what I am doing to it and why/how - if it's the pannier issue, this is ultimately fairly easily solveable - just a bit of a pain - and only a recent phenomenon.
If, on the other hand, it's what I am doing due to any abnormalities in my posture etc., this is more interesting as it sheds a bit of light on a 25 year old problem (that started before I could even ride a bike).

It certainly seems possible that it's the pannier, and I think I will have a go at going with two panniers and see how I get on. I've got a new bike for commuting now, so will see if I get any pedal problems with that. It's got a plastic saddle, so will not be able to test that unfortunately.
My intuition is still saying it's not this however. The tourer has done more miles with two panniers on it (it's only really been since last September when my old bike got nicked that it's been used for one pannier commuting) and the old bike had pedal problems long before either panniers or SPDs...


Anyhow, thanks very much for your detailed post, it's certainly given me a few things to think about.

[Brucey]

re leg length; if it was 1/2" difference your physio would have flagged it and you would probably have a load of other clues already. But lots of people have legs ~1/4" different and it rarely troubles them until they get onto the bike, and then it can cause all kinds of weird things with some people. Put it this way, if you packed out one shoe with a 1/4" insole, you would notice that, right? So I'm saying to maybe check it, and the foot camber too, is all. Not every physio will understand exactly how things work when you are on a bike, and a second opinion can't hurt?

Likewise I wouldn't assume that the cleats are perfect without checking them again. I've ridden SPDs for many years now but a couple of years ago I realised that my cleats were not quite right on one set of shoes. The result of this was that I ended up moving the cleats slightly on both sets of shoes that I use regularly. They weren't far off before, but they were better afterwards. I now can't use certain shoe and pedal combinations BTW (because of the lateral cleat setting, and PD-6500 and PD-7410 are slightly shorter than other SPDs) but my legs are pushing in a straighter line than they were before.

Given that I don't have very wide feet I strongly suspect that many other people have the cleat set too far inboard on the shoe, simply so that the shoe clears the crank, and that under load, the shoe camber is all to cock. I have seen this in extremis where the shoe is cambered about ten degrees under load, with typical 'trainer style' SPD shoes that don't have very stiff soles. Not every setup/shoe/pedal combination works equally well here. It can't hurt to have someone else look at how your foot sits when the pedals are under load?

cheers

[531colin]

Here is the thread on checking frame alignment with string.....http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59332&hilit=string

My right bum bone makes more of a dent in the saddle than the left, and when riding along I see more of the right side of the front wheel than than I do of the left side, despite being left eye dominant, so I conclude that I am leaning to the right myself, and/or leaning the bike to the left, but probably very slightly. I can do hundred mile days with no sore knees, shoulders, etc, so I conclude it doesn't matter too much. However, its dead easy to check this out on your own, so I would start there.....if your bigger dent from your left bum bone isn't explained by your bike leaning to the right (and/or you leaning to the left), then there must be another explanation. On the face of it, if you hang a single pannier on the right side, you might expect to lean the bike left to balance it, but as I'm strictly a saddlebag man I'll leave that one to the single-pannier brigade....or, as you say, just balance up the bike with 2 panniers and see if it makes a difference to your view of the front wheel.

Brucey has probably explained the M520 pedal problem, although I have at least 4 pairs in use and all I do is try to remember to grease them annually, I have never adjusted the bearings at all!

I wouldn't mind having a pound for every time I have heard "there is nothing wrong with my bike fit, but I get this pain"

Seriously though, if you have persistent pain that sounds like good evidence that something is wrong.....I'm not clear whether you get the same "lower left leg pain" cycling as doing anything else? Few of us are biomechanically perfect, and if (for example) you learned to walk slightly unevenly as a toddler, that means part of your body is working harder than it needs to, just to compensate. I know a physiotherapist and podiatrist who work together (in Harrogate) who could probably sort that one out.
Do read Steve Hogg here...https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/addendum-to-seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be-2/ He shows how a rider (without any significant difference in leg length, etc) can set their saddle too high and then "compensate" by pointing his toes and dipping his hip to increase leg reach.....unfortunately the rider's "compensation" only works for their "favoured" leg, the other leg suffers from over-extension of the knee.

[Benethi]

Cheers.

I wouldn't mind having a pound for every time I have heard "there is nothing wrong with my bike fit, but I get this pain"

Seriously though, if you have persistent pain that sounds like good evidence that something is wrong.....

Just to clarify, I have no pain on the bike, likewise I can do 100+ mile days without bother.

The pain in my leg is largely when I am at rest, and has been an issue since before I even learnt to ride a bike, let alone did any serious mileage.

I'm going to go out briefly now and see which side of the bike I can see!

I'm waiting for a doctor's appointment at the moment, with the expectation of seeing a physio / podiatrist again, and largely just want to get all the information I can ready before I do so (hence trying to work out whether it is linked to my pedal problems is more important than trying to fix an unknown problem with the bike itself).

[531colin]

To clarify for my tired old brain........
Leg pain doesn't manifest when cycling
Cycling problems are........
destroying left pedals
left bum bone dent bigger than right

[Benethi]

To clarify for my tired old brain........
Leg pain doesn't manifest when cycling
Cycling problems are........
destroying left pedals
left bum bone dent bigger than right

Precisely! I suspect they could be linked in the sense that they may both be caused by e.g. me putting more weight on my left side. Or it could be completely unrelated.

Having tried a quick ride down the road (on two different bikes - not at the same time), I couldn't see one side of the bike more than the other so I don't seem to be leaning particularly one way or the other.

[Jeff31]

I've noticed, a couple of times on my commuting bike that does get neglected somewhat, that the left hand pedal seems to become more contaminated and I put this down to it being more exposed to road spray. Periodically separating the body and axle and shoving some grease in before reassembling keeps them running smoothly.

Jeff