Alfine 8 Advice (Or Nexus?).

[mrjemm]

I've got a 90s Al road frame coming my way, and am guessing it's likely a 130 rear spacing (likeliest?), and not being a speedy-roadie type, am quite keen on having a simple look, but not go as far as single speed/fixed, so... a hub gear system comes to mind. As you may know, I am not a great fan of SA at the mo (had it checked, and it's just me being a sensitive soul; the level of noise is normal), so Alfine springs to mind. Though before I go any further... are these quieter? Shimano hubs are lovely quiet, so assume so currently.

So, is this a feasible solution for the frame? I can only see new ones in disc brake versions, and at 135mm OLN/D, so am guessing it is likely I'll need a used/NOS one, assuming it'll have to be non-disc to be narrower (and only a rim frame anyway). Going by other Alfine threads, I think I am best off looking at 8 over 11, especially as I want it for through year use.

If all this looks undoable, would a Nexus be a better option? As a last resort, are 8spd SA as noisy as BWR (SA Brompton Wide Range) hubs? Can't help thinking SA is insulting to a road frame though; my hefty presence, and inability to ride without a bag will be shaming the poor thing enough!

Hmmm, will need a tensioner too. Forgot that for a mo. Advice on them good too, if anyone feels finger-loquacious.

Am sure I had more things to ask, but if I remember them, I'll come back with the extras.

Oh gawblimey, I keep seeing folk ride by on this lovely day. Had to stay in for the BT man, now no excuse, places to go, but sadly not on bike just now. Back later. TTFN.

[Brucey]

re tensioner; you can use a 'magic gear' for a fair while, and if you have two chainrings (1T apart to swap between) and 1/8" of available wheel movement (via filing) then you can retain good chain tension without a tensioner. NB if you do this, do leave the bottom of the dropout slot the original width, so that the tabs on the NTWs can still work.

An alfine 8 hub as a very wide LH locknut so can reduced by 5-6mm OLN provided you want to use a rim brake, although the wheel dish will suffer a little). (Mad thought; could you reverse/modify a centre-lock disc and run a disc brake at 130 oln?)

All hub gears can be noisy (esp if there isn't enough lube in them...) when new, in good part because the gear teeth are not cut to perfect involute tooth forms. Eventually they may wear to a 'better shape' but this can take many thousands of miles. Note that planet gears often have to mesh with a ring gear as well as a sun gear so the meshing can be good with one and bad with the other, and they will wear at different rates too. Also note that in 'simple' IGHs ( most SA ones and most older SRAM ones, all three-speeds) the same gear train sees loads in both directions, and the noise can vary with direction too.

Alfine hubs are pretty quiet but there will be some noise rather than none. A premium quality Nexus hub is very similar internally and is a bit easier to slim down to a narrower OLN.

cheers

[Rich_Clements]

re tensioner; you can use a 'magic gear' for a fair while, and if you have two chainrings (1T apart to swap between) and 1/8" of available wheel movement (via filing) then you can retain good chain tension without a tensioner. NB if you do this, do leave the bottom of the dropout slot the original width, so that the tabs on the NTWs can still work.

An alfine 8 hub as a very wide LH locknut so can reduced by 5-6mm OLN provided you want to use a rim brake, although the wheel dish will suffer a little). (Mad thought; could you reverse/modify a centre-lock disc and run a disc brake at 130 oln?)

All hub gears can be noisy (esp if there isn't enough lube in them...) when new, in good part because the gear teeth are not cut to perfect involute tooth forms. Eventually they may wear to a 'better shape' but this can take many thousands of miles. Note that planet gears often have to mesh with a ring gear as well as a sun gear so the meshing can be good with one and bad with the other, and they will wear at different rates too. Also note that in 'simple' IGHs ( most SA ones and most older SRAM ones, all three-speeds) the same gear train sees loads in both directions, and the noise can vary with direction too.

Alfine hubs are pretty quiet but there will be some noise rather than none. A premium quality Nexus hub is very similar internally and is a bit easier to slim down to a narrower OLN.

cheers

Agree with everything Brucey says, there is a little noise but not much.

regards the tentioner, I have a alfine tentioner which does the job just fine. http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/shimano-alfine-chain-tensioner-ct-s500-black-id86001.html?gclid=CMXxtJL0iskCFSMIwwodmz0OmQ

[LuckyLuke]

Hi, I used to have a Nexus 8 wheel in a frame with vertical dropouts.
Do you have a spare rear mech in the parts box?
I used a short cage 105 rear derailleur from the spares box as a chaintensioner, I used the Hi & Lo tension screws to dial in the position.

I've now got the Nexus 8 wheel in an early 1990s road frame. 130 OLN. It has Campagnolo style semi-horizontal droppouts, which give enough movement for adjusting chain tension, so no tensioner required. The plan is to add a chaincase, I've got one in the wings, just need some time to fit it...

I feel the hub is pretty quiet in use, & am a big fan, if it didn't have that big jump between 5 & 6 it would be almost perfect!
Good luck with your build.

Best wishes,

Luke

[akc1]

Hi, I used to have a Nexus 8 wheel in a frame with vertical dropouts.
Do you have a spare rear mech in the parts box?
I used a short cage 105 rear derailleur from the spares box as a chaintensioner, I used the Hi & Lo tension screws to dial in the position.

I've now got the Nexus 8 wheel in an early 1990s road frame. 130 OLN. It has Campagnolo style semi-horizontal droppouts, which give enough movement for adjusting chain tension, so no tensioner required. The plan is to add a chaincase, I've got one in the wings, just need some time to fit it...

I feel the hub is pretty quiet in use, & am a big fan, if it didn't have that big jump between 5 & 6 it would be almost perfect!
Good luck with your build.

Best wishes,

Luke

Extremely pleased with my Alfine 8 - on my town bike.

Good deal with http://www.justridingalong.com - supplied the hub and tensioner and built a sturdy wheel for me. Price as good as German Internet options. They told me they won't supply Alfine 11 - too many problems & complaints.

[hercule]

There must be something wrong with my ancient Nexus 8 Premium... it's nearly silent!

Unlike the SA wide range 8 speed on another bike, which sounds like a bandsaw starting up

[mrjemm]

Thanks folk for the help. Lots to be going on with. Sorry I took so long to get back and go through this. Will investigate deeper tomorrow. Thank you all.

[syklist]

I've got a 90s Al road frame coming my way, and am guessing it's likely a 130 rear spacing (likeliest?), and not being a speedy-roadie type, am quite keen on having a simple look, but not go as far as single speed/fixed, so... a hub gear system comes to mind. As you may know, I am not a great fan of SA at the mo (had it checked, and it's just me being a sensitive soul; the level of noise is normal), so Alfine springs to mind. Though before I go any further... are these quieter? Shimano hubs are lovely quiet, so assume so currently.

You can narrow a Nexus 8 (I presume the same can be done with the Alfine 8 ). There is a very wide "lock nut" on the non-drive side. You need to modify the plastic and metal parts of the dust cover. If you remove the big extra nut you can get the OLD down to 122 mm. If you only want to get down to 130 mm OLD then you can file the nut down and fettle the dust cover. See http://mistymornings.net/blogs/mm/?p=45 for some information. My Nexus 8 Red Band had an OLD of 132 mm before I modified it. If this is still the case then you will end up with a very slight dish on the wheel if you narrow the hub to 130 mm OLD.

[Brucey]

....you will end up with a very slight dish on the wheel if you narrow the hub to 130 mm OLD.

Actually the wheel already has an appreciable dish to it at the standard OLN; it would perhaps be more accurate to say that this is very slightly increased when the hub is narrowed.

The Alfine 8 hubs have a ~10mm wide LH locknut and this protrudes at least 8mm from the (easily removed and replaced) rubber centrelock cover.

Thus (for rim brake use) slimming an Alfine 8 hub down (by up to ~7mm) is if anything slightly easier than reducing a Nexus 8 similarly; you just need a slimmer locknut with 3/8" x 26 tpi threading, and no other mods. The dishing is the same as for a Nexus.

cheers

[mrjemm]

So... Are Alfine 8 hubs only disc versions now? Really not a huuuge issue, as I'd potentially be able to swap onto a disc frame at a later date, but of course, it's not ideal.

Not sure what you mean by a 'magic gear' Brucey, unless it is the process you describe in the following passage. Is that right? It would be nice to avoid using a tensioner for tidiness reasons, but I'd rather not do any filing or other alterations to the frame itself as yet.

Was hoping I'd get the frame today, but no sign as yet. Am also hoping, if I decide to go Alfine, to find a used one, so an older one may be doable, and in that case, without disc maybe?

[Rich_Clements]

you can use a disc hub in a non disc frame, minus the rotor the thing to remember is the rim and if that is rim brake compatible.

[mrjemm]

Good deal with http://www.justridingalong.com - supplied the hub and tensioner and built a sturdy wheel for me. Price as good as German Internet options. They told me they won't supply Alfine 11 - too many problems & complaints.

I got some wheels from them some years ago, and they seemed OK, though the rims died (cracked around several spokes) and hated the mega noisy hubs. But, the Alfine wheel build seems to add up to well over £300, while on ebay I saw several ads for 'Taylor Wheels' from Germany, such as-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Taylor-Wheels ... Sw3ydVwf3S

For a lot less; £178 inc. shifter, etc., plus £4.99 P&P. That's 28" in silver on a Mavic 319, so perhaps ideal. Any reputation?

Maybe good too, with a front Alfine dynohub for £240-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Taylor-Wheels ... SwT6pVwf4U

you can use a disc hub in a non disc frame, minus the rotor the thing to remember is the rim and if that is rim brake compatible.

Thanks Rich, I'd consider it, but a non-disc one may be narrower (or more adaptable to narrower), neater and more symetrical/less dished. Maybe.

[Rich_Clements]

I have a Taylor wheels front wheel with a Alfine Dynohub (actually I have two) with that rim and its fine I have a 32c Marathon Tyre on it and I wouldn't want to go much thinner. They are based in Germany and the wheel took about a week to arrive, the front hub has a little cover if you don't plan on using discs which goes over the splines where the rotor would normally go.

Regards the dishing etc. I don't know someone like Brucey would know.

BTW they have a website as well as a ebay account https://www.taylor-wheels.com/wheels/28-inch

[mrjemm]

Great stuff Rich, thanks.

[Brucey]

So... Are Alfine 8 hubs only disc versions now? Really not a huuuge issue, as I'd potentially be able to swap onto a disc frame at a later date, but of course, it's not ideal.

Not sure what you mean by a 'magic gear' Brucey, unless it is the process you describe in the following passage. Is that right? It would be nice to avoid using a tensioner for tidiness reasons, but I'd rather not do any filing or other alterations to the frame itself as yet.

Was hoping I'd get the frame today, but no sign as yet. Am also hoping, if I decide to go Alfine, to find a used one, so an older one may be doable, and in that case, without disc maybe?

IIRC Alfine 8 hubs have always had a centrelock disc fitting on the LHS. This doesn't alter the wheel dishing or the flange spacing in the slightest vs a Nexus hub. I think the hubshell starts life as near enough the same part as a Nexus, but is just machined and finished differently. Similarly all Nexus 8 hubs have a rollerbrake spline, but in some cases it is covered over.

Nexus (and maybe Alfine) hubs can come with a -V suffix in the model designation; this denotes that the hub comes with the cover over the roller brake fitting, which in the case of the Nexus hub it definitely needs if you are not going to use a roller brake; the LH cone has no lip seal on it. The alfine hubs can be used without the rubber cover over the centrelock fitting, but the spline will soon corrode because it is just a raw aluminium finish. The LH cone on the Alfine hub has an effective lip seal and although the rubber centrelock cover provides a little additional protection, it isn't really essential to protect the bearings.

In use there is one big difference in that if you want to adjust the hub bearings, you will have to remove a Nexus wheel from the frame (to remove either the cover or the rollerbrake and thus allow access to the cone and locknut) whereas it is usually possible to adjust an Alfine 8 with the wheel in the frame, provided you are using a rim brake.

Re 'magic gear'; this refers to the gear that exactly allows a singlespeed/IGH drive to be used in a frame with vertical dropouts, with no tensioner. You can calculate it here;

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/chain_length/chainlengthcalc.html

but you will need to measure your chainstay length very accurately. Obviously once the chain wears more than ~0.3% you may find that the chain slack is too much, and then you need to 'do something'. In the short run fitting another chain will work; in the long run you can refit the part-worn chains later and use them up using 'the scheme'. 'The scheme' I propose (as previously described) allows you to retain the chain tension as the chain wears, without a tensioner. Re filing the dropouts; to get enough movement with a Nexus or Alfine hub, you don't need to file much. You get ~0.5mm 'for free' (because the dropout will be at least 10mm and the axle is 3/8"), which means you then only need file ~1.25mm from the front and back of the dropout to make the scheme work OK, provided you can swap between two chainrings as described.

cheers