Wheels for my classic road bike

[grani]

I hesitate to ask for advice on this but here I go.

I am looking to build a Johnny Berry frameset into a road bike for a decent amount of use. Since the original components were stripped off the bike a long time ago I have no starting point with components except for the seatpost and stem.

I don't want to do any alterations to the frame or fork so will stick to within the limits of the design.

I have a decent selection of modern parts already but my biggest issue is with some decent quality lightweight wheels.

I have sourced a NOS 36h Shimano Exage rear hub that I can respace to fit reasonably well in the rear (frame spacing is 123 and the hub will be 126) and that will take a HyperGlide cassette. So if I want I can make a 9 out of 10 or even better a 9 out of 11 cassette to work with a modern Shimano STI shifter. I have tested the 9 out of 10 and it will fit into the frame but the 9 out of 11 would be slightly narrower so I will prefer that to make absolutely sure that the chain never fouls the seatstay. I understand the strong opinions on this matter but I am confident I have done most of my research and am happy to test out this plan. Difference 3mm should be fine as there are several manufacturers that make 132.5 spaced frames to fit either 130 or 135.

The frame is built for 27" wheels but the tolerances are luckily tight. With 700c I can still fit a 57mm drop brake at the front. At the rear I could relatively easily fabricate a drop bolt for fitting a modern brake or get some offset brake shoes to make up the slight difference from a 57mm brake. So I feel that I have both options available to me. For the rear the problem is really the lack of compatibility between the Tektro R559 and the Shimano New Super SLR standard so would prefer to go with the Shimano R650 and their, according to the Shimano compatibility chart, reasonable compatibility.

My thoughts for the rear are either the 36h or a 32h Exage hub with a Mavic Open Pro rim and Continental 4Seasons tyre for a 700c build or the same hub with a Alex AP18 from SJS and Continental Gatorskin tyre for a 27" build. For the front it would be 105 hub with Mavic Open Pro for the 700c and same hub with the Alex AP18 rim.

The main advantage that I see with 700c is the availability of rims and tyres (I already own the 4Seasons tyres). The advantage with the 27" would be the fitting of the brakes but with the slight disadvantage that it would leave less space for a mudguard in the front.

I understand the urge to tell me to build a museum piece and that I should have my head examined but I am more than happy to hear any constructive criticism.

[Brucey]

I'd do an 8-from-9 type build on a 7s freehub body myself. You can rob a few mm extra by either machining the freehub shoulder or by using a dished #1 sprocket.

I'd fit 700c wheels (esp if you are planning to use mudguards or fat tyres) and just get brakes with 4mm more drop to them.

I certainly wouldn't bother with 11s kit, not because it is out of keeping with the rest of the bike (although it most definitely is) but because you are planning use this bike, right? - In which case you are soon going to get bored with chains that need to be replaced every 1000 miles or so.

cheers

[fastpedaller]

That all sounds good to me - 'progress' marches on, and I understand your thought with not altering the frame as I would also keep it as is. Your plans look good, and personally I'd go for 700C. In my youth I got a frame built for 27" during the 'transition period' when 700C was the new kid on the block, and always regretted not getting it built for 700C. . If you do get swayed towards making it more 'traditional' then the zenith rear hub ( silver alloy large flange) to take a screw -on freewheel is an option.

[grani]

You can rob a few mm extra by either machining the freehub shoulder or by using a dished #1 sprocket.

Would I not run a risk of the derailleur fouling the spokes if I do that?

[Brucey]

You can rob a few mm extra by either machining the freehub shoulder or by using a dished #1 sprocket.

Would I not run a risk of the derailleur fouling the spokes if I do that?

not much; 7s freehubs are wider there so have room to spare. 10s and 11s cassettes come with dished/offset #1 sprockets anyway, even though the shoulder on an 8/9/10s freehub body is already closer to the spokes than with 7s.

cheers

[grani]

You can rob a few mm extra by either machining the freehub shoulder or by using a dished #1 sprocket.

Would I not run a risk of the derailleur fouling the spokes if I do that?

not much; 7s freehubs are wider there so have room to spare. 10s and 11s cassettes come with dished/offset #1 sprockets anyway, even though the shoulder on an 8/9/10s freehub body is already closer to the spokes than with 7s.

cheers

When comparing the freehubs it looks like the shoulder on the 7s is 4mm from the edge and 3mm on the 8/9/10s. It might be useful to machine that extra 1mm off just to give the extra space between the cassette and the seatstay. That would give me a lot of options in terms of gearing.

My logic says that since the wheel is quite heavily dished it might be wise to go with 36 spokes for the added strength but is there be any reason why I would want 32 spokes on the rear?

[Brucey]

if you machine the 7s freehub body, there are a few things to look out for;

1) it is very hard steel; you will probably need a carbide tipped tool in a lathe. An alternative is to grind the shoulder.

2) the freehub body will be too long (for many of the sprocket options) once the shoulder is relieved. This leaves the choice of shortening it or using a spacer on the right side. If you shorten the body too much you can run out of lockring threads inside or have issues shortening the RH cone/locknut assy. If you use a spacer, that will end up within a gnat's of the inside face of the dropout for sure and if you have a spacer more than ~1mm then it will probably be the lockring that limits the minimum clearance between the chain and dropout.

3) if you relieve/shorten the freehub body you may find it difficult to fit an 11T or 12T sprocket because the relief at the RH end of the splines will be in the wrong place or gone altogether. If you are a sensible chap and use an 8-from -9 cassette you can lose the 11T, have a 13T top sprocket and no problems.

Provided you can overcome any small issues of this sort then this is a pretty good route.

cheers

[grani]

if you machine the 7s freehub body, there are a few things to look out for;

1) it is very hard steel; you will probably need a carbide tipped tool in a lathe. An alternative is to grind the shoulder.

2) the freehub body will be too long (for many of the sprocket options) once the shoulder is relieved. This leaves the choice of shortening it or using a spacer on the right side. If you shorten the body too much you can run out of lockring threads inside or have issues shortening the RH cone/locknut assy. If you use a spacer, that will end up within a gnat's of the inside face of the dropout for sure and if you have a spacer more than ~1mm then it will probably be the lockring that limits the minimum clearance between the chain and dropout.

3) if you relieve/shorten the freehub body you may find it difficult to fit an 11T or 12T sprocket because the relief at the RH end of the splines will be in the wrong place or gone altogether. If you are a sensible chap and use an 8-from -9 cassette you can lose the 11T, have a 13T top sprocket and no problems.

Provided you can overcome any small issues of this sort then this is a pretty good route.

cheers

Yes I think I will probably grind it. I have tried putting the 8 out of 9 on the freehub and the fit is remarkable so I think that might be my route for now. The clearance in the frame is not ideal with a 12t and I would very much like the smallest to be a 13t or even 14t. I am probably being to conservative but I would rather do this properly.

The 1st sprocket of a 10s cassette is dished around 1mm which means that I should in theory have around 2mm to play with. If I use an undished 1st sprocket (as it is on a 9s cassette) I could take 2mm off the freehub shoulder and use a spacers to position the cassette perfectly.

As is I can put 8 of 9 on the freehub and the last sprocket overhangs the freehub by approx. 1.5mm and locks on fine with the lockring. If I remove 2mm from the shoulder I should be .5mm short and if I make it up with a 1mm spacers then I should be back with .5mm overhang. I could also use a 2mm to make sure I have enough to tighten it properly. Would that be reasonable or should I look to have a bigger overhang?

I am fairly convinced that going with the 8 out of 9 cassette is the better way to go. If I feel like buying some fancy shifters I could always get the Campagnolo 11s as they should be able to shift Shimano 9s more or less perfectly.

[Brucey]

re the overhang; I think that the correct amount may vary with different cassettes so it is a suck it and see job. You just need to be sure that the lockring doesn't bottom out (or only hold the smallest sprocket against the end of the freehub body). Either condition can allow the sprockets to move and fret on the freehub body.

8 from 9 with no body modifications is an easy route and it works OK but if you are prepared to work at it you can usually improve the wheel dish a little more; diminishing returns vs effort, of course...

cheers