New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

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ukpacker
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby ukpacker » 22 Nov 2015, 10:22pm

A small point not yet considered and perhaps of little relevance, I once toured over 1,000km on a stony and often corrugated road with low pressure 26inch M+ tyres providing 'suspension' . I never had one pinch flat. A remarkable tyre if you need it.
cheers
ukpacker

Brucey
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby Brucey » 22 Nov 2015, 11:03pm

FWIW what goes for the current M+ tyre goes for the current Marathon Greenguard too, just a little less so.

The fietsersbond tests (summarised and translated here; http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?p=929745#p929745 ) tested several tyres and using the Vittoria Hyper as a benchmark (which conveniently had the best Crr and least vibration @ 4bar);

- Marathon Greenguard HS420 +7W, +18%
- Marathon Plus HS348 +11W, +25%
- Marathon racer HS429 +11W, +0%

The baseline is about 29W power for the Hyper. If you choose HS420 you are working +24% harder against rolling resistance and the comfort is significantly degraded. If you go to M+ same again but worse again (+38%, +25%) on both counts; the price you pay for puncture protection. The marathon racer is at least comfortable, but it measured as a slow tyre, as slow as an M+. [ +10W is roughly 1 km/h slower].

The vibration figures for the M, M+ were amongst the poorest in the test; only three tyres (out of over twenty that were measured) were worse in this regard.

They did not test the HS368 Marathon which was already going obsolete in late 2012; however some of the other schwalbe tyres have similar puncture protection in them so might be expected to roll similarly. As I noted previously I have my doubts about the measured Crr of the Kevlar belted tyres, because they take a while to 'run in', and were probably tested when brand new.

To anyone who thinks that their tyres are already 'very comfortable' even though they have some thick sidewalls and puncture protection, I'd suggest that they might like to try some really nice tyres instead. The difference is remarkable.

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby reohn2 » 23 Nov 2015, 8:50am

I've read somewhere(VeloVision I think)Mike Burrows did some roll down tests with a variety of tyres(that you'd think would have trounced M+) and M+ came out best.I don't think he claimed anything more than that IIRC.
But TBH IME Marathons,H308 & H368 rolled well when we used them on the tandems and on my tourer,but that was years ago.
The one thing I noticed immediately we went on to Ribmos on the tandems was comfort levels increased quite dramatically,and they rolled better.
When I began riding Vittoria Hypers comfort levels soared and it was as if some had taken the brakes off.
If M+'s roll well I didn't notice for the short time(a little less than six months)I used them however the ride was diabolically harsh,unless pressures were really low to the point where they were really draggy.
I would imagine M Green Guards to be somewhere between M+ and H368,though I could be wrong it would be some incredible magic if they weren't,as looking at Schwalbe's specs for them,the carcass is a course 67 TPI.When I've inspected them in shop the the sidewalls and tread feel stiff and harsh.
They have their uses and people may fit a good tyre for what they want,but IMHO there's far better on the market.
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mjr
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby mjr » 23 Nov 2015, 1:04pm

Brucey wrote:The baseline is about 29W power for the Hyper. If you choose HS420 you are working +24% harder against rolling resistance and the comfort is significantly degraded. If you go to M+ same again but worse again (+38%, +25%) on both counts; the price you pay for puncture protection.

Looks like it takes much less energy to puncture the Hyper (51% instead of 69%). Is the Randonneur Hyper what's now the Voyager Hyper? I like them both, but Vittoria seem as bad as Schwalbe for confusing names. If so, that "Ultra-light...most of Competition Series race technology" tyre only has "Speed Shield" so seems more like an alternative Schwalbe's various Cruiser ranges ("versatile and offers pleasant rolling characteristics"), which is more where I'd look if I'm happy to sacrifice some puncture resistance to get a more comfortable ride.

Is the Journalier range ("the go-to tires for ... when simply getting there is critical") more Vittoria's current Marathon ("the most effective puncture protection belt available") competitor?

I'm always happy to learn about alternatives, but please let's compare similar things. You probably can get a nicer ride but that might still not be a good choice if you're riding over junk.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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reohn2
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby reohn2 » 23 Nov 2015, 1:13pm

I have both Randonneur Hypers and Voyager Hypers they're the same tyre.
IMHO Vittoria changed the name form Randonneur to Voyager to remove the risk of confusion between their Randonneur range.
The first Randonneur Hypers I bought from PlanetX weren't on Vittoria's site and that was 3+years ago.I concluded they were old stock.

If you're continually riding "over junk" ie;glass stress paths and bad city litter strewn streets where riding through it is unavoidable,you need the armour plating that M+ type tyres offer,yer pays yer money,as they say
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mjr
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby mjr » 23 Nov 2015, 1:36pm

reohn2 wrote:If you're continually riding "over junk" ie;glass stress paths and bad city litter strewn streets where riding through it is unavoidable,you need the armour plating that M+ type tyres offer,yer pays yer money,as they say

Actually, it's the blasted arrowhead flints that wash across quiet country lanes that are more likely to provoke me to go for that. I'm riding the motorised-crash-prone glass-strewn rural A10 on cruiser type tyres and I think I've had 3 punctures in the last 2 months :( but two of them were drawing pins, with one in a location where there's nowhere to pin anything as it's all metal lampposts and brick walls! I feel this happens more when the press have been ranting about cyclists again :( All it takes is some lunatic losing an argument on a newspaper website's comments section to go out with a box of pins and it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

Edit: I got sidetracked. What I meant to say was that glass-strewn roads/paths are OK even with cruiser-type tyres that have puncture-resistant strips only under the outer circumference and not the sidewalls.
Last edited by mjr on 23 Nov 2015, 4:29pm, edited 1 time in total.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

reohn2
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby reohn2 » 23 Nov 2015, 1:46pm

I quite agree about the drawing pins,TBH the fact that someone's reaction toward cyclists is that bad(among others stupid and dangerous antics)it says more about UK society and it's attitude to cycling than anything else.
Such idiots must feel awfully threatened by cycling to do such things.
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Brucey
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby Brucey » 23 Nov 2015, 3:31pm

mjr wrote: ....I'm always happy to learn about alternatives, but please let's compare similar things. You probably can get a nicer ride but that might still not be a good choice if you're riding over junk.


Sure, no question. I think that schwalbe's tyres roll well for that level of puncture protection; you can certainly do a lot worse. But that is not the same thing as them being an absolutely easy rolling/comfortable tyres, which is the impression that you can get from reading some tests.

BTW I am deeply confused by the Vittoria tyre range... they appear to have rebranded (or altered) almost everything so whatever teeny fragments of knowledge I had are now blown to the winds of change....

cheers
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geocycle
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby geocycle » 23 Nov 2015, 3:32pm

I don't really understand the experiments run here so perhaps someone could help. Has the significantly lighter weight of the racer been taken into account here?

I agree with Brucey about sidewalls. I rode some panaracer TGs for 125 happy miles before the sidewalls split, but the ride was excellent! I'm now on 26 x 1.6 marathon supremes which also have thin side walls but are really excellent and very hard wearing (13,000 miles on the clock).

Brucey
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby Brucey » 23 Nov 2015, 4:23pm

geocycle wrote:I don't really understand the experiments run here so perhaps someone could help. Has the significantly lighter weight of the racer been taken into account here? ....


In what way accounted? The lighter weight is almost certainly a factor in the comfort levels (which are as good as any) but the weight of the tyre won't alter the Crr or overall drag much at all; an extra 300g weight on each wheel (say) will have a negligible effect at a constant speed.

cheers
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geocycle
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby geocycle » 23 Nov 2015, 4:43pm

Brucey wrote:
geocycle wrote:I don't really understand the experiments run here so perhaps someone could help. Has the significantly lighter weight of the racer been taken into account here? ....


In what way accounted? The lighter weight is almost certainly a factor in the comfort levels (which are as good as any) but the weight of the tyre won't alter the Crr or overall drag much at all; an extra 300g weight on each wheel (say) will have a negligible effect at a constant speed.

cheers


Thanks Brucey, I suppose I was thinking about overcoming inertia and acceleration/climbing where I understand lighter wheels/tyres have an advantage? Maybe I haven't understood Crr properly.

Brucey
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby Brucey » 23 Nov 2015, 5:17pm

they'll accelerate faster if they are lighter, but that isn't usually something that ranks very high in importance for touring purposes, and if it did, you perhaps wouldn't be looking at wider/ more puncture-proof tyres.

BTW some TT bikes have been built with deliberately heavy wheels, the idea being that lightweight actually works against you in some cases. I don't know if this is really correct or not but it at least shows that more wheel weight isn't a definitely and unequivocally bad thing at constant speed.

cheers
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Sleeper Service
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby Sleeper Service » 23 Nov 2015, 6:52pm

To be honest, for winter I wouldn't look further than M+ tyres. It may take a little more effort to get them going, but I can't say the ride is unpleasant at all, and I never have to carry a spare tube, levers, and pump unless I'm going out into the boonies. Then again, I would never go lower than a 32 on M+ tyres as there are better options for the skinny brigade.

mercalia
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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby mercalia » 25 Nov 2015, 2:53am

Brucey wrote:

To anyone who thinks that their tyres are already 'very comfortable' even though they have some thick sidewalls and puncture protection, I'd suggest that they might like to try some really nice tyres instead. The difference is remarkable.

cheers


Depends on how heavy you are. I suspect you dont weigh much so that's a factor you discount( lucky you) My Dawes-1-Down came with City Marathons ( long since not made ) a semi slick rather thin supple walled tyre had to be pumped up real hard and even then with my weight wobbled at hard cornering. At 65-75 psi 1.75" the HS368 or the new Greenguard are fine comfort wise with just a small amount of road feel.

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Re: New touring tyre tests – good early showing by Schwalbe

Postby bretonbikes » 25 Nov 2015, 3:05pm

I'm a big fan of Schwalbe not least because they offer proper touring slicks - but their 'Spicer' is a stupidly cheap slick suitable for touring and is now the standard tyre on all our hire bikes. Every September we run a group trip into mountains - the last one Provence and the Ventoux (see http://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cyc ... difference), and this year to the Auvergne/Cevennes. In both trips I had 13 bikes, all fully loaded with camping gear and the combined trips covered over 16,000m of climbing, 1400 kms distance (so 18,000 kms total) and speeds up to 50 mph. Not one puncture in either trip, no sidewall problems (some roads were rough)...

That is what you want in a touring tyre;-) Add the fact that they seemed to roll faster downhill than the Schwalbe Marathons fitted to my own bike and you can see why I love them.

There's the typical, highly opinionated article here;-) - http://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cyc ... ycle-tyres
35 years of cycletouring, 30 years of running cycling holidays, 5 years of running a campsite for cyclists - there's a pattern here...