Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby hubgearfreak » 23 Jan 2016, 2:26pm

Brucey wrote:if you use a later (non NIG) SA 3s hub then there are longer axles available for those (175 or 177 mm or something)


it shows on the SA website that they do exist. if you knew where one might be bought in the UK or EU i'd love to know

niggle
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby niggle » 23 Jan 2016, 3:11pm

Brucey wrote:if you use a later (non NIG) SA 3s hub then there are longer axles available for those (175 or 177 mm or something), and that might let you keep the frame as it is.

IIRC a non-NIG internal will usually fit into an older AW hubshell on a non-brake hub but if you fit a long axle to a 70mm brake hub I think you need the internal and the hubshell to match and be the later type. Do check this but I think you can fit the longer axle to a SAB3 hub for example.

cheers

Interested in this but not too sure as I have no experience of mixing and matching SA hub parts, nor what is or is not NIG- I know it means No Intermediate Gear but not what that means in terms of parts/design.

I am presuming you mean swap in the only 177mm axle from a 3 spd drum brake hub that seems to be listed, i.e. the XL-RD3 http://www.sturmey-archer.com/files/cat ... XL-RD3.pdf part no. HSA808 http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sturmey-arch ... prod34761/

The latest parts diagram I can find for the SAB is this 1987 Mk2 version: http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/i ... ail&id=155 and although some relevant parts are the same some appear to be different e.g. clutch

Also found Mk1 version http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/i ... ail&id=123 parts different again.

niggle
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby niggle » 23 Jan 2016, 3:12pm

hubgearfreak wrote:
Brucey wrote:if you use a later (non NIG) SA 3s hub then there are longer axles available for those (175 or 177 mm or something)


it shows on the SA website that they do exist. if you knew where one might be bought in the UK or EU i'd love to know

Have you found a parts diagram for the current SAB3?

Brucey
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby Brucey » 23 Jan 2016, 3:21pm

hubgearfreak wrote:
Brucey wrote:if you use a later (non NIG) SA 3s hub then there are longer axles available for those (175 or 177 mm or something)


it shows on the SA website that they do exist. if you knew where one might be bought in the UK or EU i'd love to know


Do check this, but I think this is the one HSA808...?

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sturmey-archer-axle-for-xl-rd3-177-mm-hsa808-prod34761/

AFAIK this fits all SA NIG 3s hubs (with a toggle chain), including those (mostly made for export) pre-2000 ones (I've certainly fitted this part in 163mm form to one suchhttp://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sturmey-archer-axle-nig-3-speed-1627mm-hsa440-prod19164/ .

I also think that -if you were to grind the toggle key slot longer in it- that it might well work in an older (non NIG) AW too. The thing I'm not sure about is whether you would

a) run out of threads for the RH cone or
b) end up with a weird chainline


cheers
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hubgearfreak
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby hubgearfreak » 25 Jan 2016, 7:34pm

Brucey

are you saying that the axle in a braked hub and the axle in an unbraked hub are interchangeable? i always imagined that the gear parts of a braked hub were thinner to allow for the brake parts to fit in aswell. although, i'd assumed this and never measured it :oops:

if it is the case that the axle HSA808 that's listed on SJSC as for XL-RD3 will also fit into an S-RF3, then it seems there is a whole load more (un-coldsettable) frames opened themselves up to 3-speeding. :twisted:

Brucey
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby Brucey » 25 Jan 2016, 9:39pm

the gear parts are indeed narrower in a brake hub, but the sun and planets are spaced the same distance from the RH cone as in a non-brake hub; the 'narrowness' comes from the planet cage being slimmer leftwards of the sun etc. This being the case I can't see why you can't fit the longer axles into non-brake hubs.

Is the same part number for the 163mm axle not specified for both brake and non-brake hubs?

I think the 177mm axle is a bit longer at both ends vs the 163mm axle, but I've never had both in my hands at the same time to compare them with one another.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

niggle
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby niggle » 25 Jan 2016, 10:05pm

The SA spec pdf http://www.sturmey-archer.com/files/cat ... 20HUBS.pdf says that the AW and SRF3 can come with a 175mm axle but there is only a choice of 163mm or 148mm on the parts list/diagram: http://www.sturmey-archer.com/files/cat ... 20SRF3.pdf

Meanwhile project Inbred 3 speed continues: I have reduced the rear spacing to 120mm by drawing the dropouts together with a length of 10mm threaded bar, nuts and washers (my headset installation tool as it happens). The On One frame was quite resistant to this, I had to squeeze the dropouts to 83mm apart to achieve a permanent set to 120mm. The dropouts converge by about 1mm from front to rear, which is negligible IMO, and the tracking appears fine.

Brucey
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby Brucey » 25 Jan 2016, 10:48pm

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/files/catalog/files/309/PART%20LIST%20-%20AW%20SRF3.pdf
shows S-RF3 with

HSA621 = 148mm axle and
HSA440 = 163mm axle

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/files/catalog/files/307/PART%20LIST%20-%20X-RD3.pdf
shows current X-RD3 with

HSA808 = 177mm axle (as also fitted to XL-RD3)

http://web.archive.org/web/20081031035156/http://www.sturmey-archer.com/pdfs/Summit_X-RD3_LTD_162.pdf
shows 2008 model X-RD3 with

HSA440 = 163mm axle.

Most of the other internal gear parts (with the exception of the planet cage, of course, which differs between brake hubs and the non brake hubs, and the ball ring, which allows a slightly different offset between the chainline and the RH flange) are identical between all these hubs. I can't see any significant difference between the internals of the 2008 and 2016 model X-RD3 hubs.

So I don't think there is much doubt that you can use longer axles in hubs that originally had shorter ones in them.

cheers
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robc02
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby robc02 » 25 Jan 2016, 10:54pm

Meanwhile project Inbred 3 speed continues: I have reduced the rear spacing to 120mm by drawing the dropouts together with a length of 10mm threaded bar, nuts and washers (my headset installation tool as it happens). The On One frame was quite resistant to this, I had to squeeze the dropouts to 83mm apart to achieve a permanent set to 120mm. The dropouts converge by about 1mm from front to rear, which is negligible IMO, and the tracking appears fine.


Are you sure both sides of the rear triangle moved by the same amount? - The bit of string around the headtube from each dropout will confirm this (or not!) quite easily.

If you firmly bolt up just one side of your hub in the dropout, you might be surprised at how hard you have to pull the other side to get the wheel aligned. I have had this experience with a respaced frame but didn't measure the convergence of the dropouts so can't specifically comment on your 1mm measurement. Checking it with a spare front hub and tweaking the alignment with an adjustable spanner is very easy - so easy it's hardly worth not doing!

Brucey
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby Brucey » 25 Jan 2016, 10:58pm

I think that any kind of dropout convergence most certainly is worth worrying about; it is the kind of thing that leads to broken axles.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

niggle
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby niggle » 26 Jan 2016, 3:04pm

robc02 wrote:
Meanwhile project Inbred 3 speed continues: I have reduced the rear spacing to 120mm by drawing the dropouts together with a length of 10mm threaded bar, nuts and washers (my headset installation tool as it happens). The On One frame was quite resistant to this, I had to squeeze the dropouts to 83mm apart to achieve a permanent set to 120mm. The dropouts converge by about 1mm from front to rear, which is negligible IMO, and the tracking appears fine.


Are you sure both sides of the rear triangle moved by the same amount? - The bit of string around the headtube from each dropout will confirm this (or not!) quite easily.

If you firmly bolt up just one side of your hub in the dropout, you might be surprised at how hard you have to pull the other side to get the wheel aligned. I have had this experience with a respaced frame but didn't measure the convergence of the dropouts so can't specifically comment on your 1mm measurement. Checking it with a spare front hub and tweaking the alignment with an adjustable spanner is very easy - so easy it's hardly worth not doing!

When I said the tracking appeared fine I meant I had checked it as per Sheldon Brown with taught thread from dropouts to headtube and back and the measurements on either side from thread to seat tube was <0.5mm different which I was happy with.

Then I had a moment when I stumbled on a NOS Sram P5 Cargo with drum brake and decided to order that instead of the Sturmey SAB3. Only thing is that this has a 126mm OLD so I did spread it back out to 126mm. It was reassuringly difficult to achieve the re-setting and I have promised the gods of cycle tinkering to never, ever do it to this or any other frame again, plus to keep an eye out for cracks in the chainstays.I would not have done this to a frame worth more than £50...

The dropouts are now better aligned as well having been tweaked with a large adjustable spanner. I have to say though that with the thick steel Inbred dropouts this was not quite as trivial as you make it sound...

Brucey
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby Brucey » 26 Jan 2016, 3:29pm

niggle wrote: .... with the thick steel Inbred dropouts this was not quite as trivial as you make it sound...


-which is why I was particularly concerned with convergence and possible broken axles....

good luck with the build!

BTW the P5 isn't too bad a hub apart from the shifting arrangements; the clickbox on the RHS is a problem area. I have seen one or two SRAM P5 hubs where one of the selector keys jumped out of position or the control rods got in a tangle but these things are usually not show stoppers provided you are willing to open up the hub and fix it.

The earlier Sachs 5s hub (with two toggle chains) is arguably a more reliable hub, provided you use two separate shifters, one for each toggle. I think with a little effort you might be able to convert the P5 to this shifting arrangement, and in time you might have to; already the clickboxes for the P5 are difficult to find as spare parts I think.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

niggle
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby niggle » 26 Jan 2016, 3:44pm

Brucey wrote:
niggle wrote: .... with the thick steel Inbred dropouts this was not quite as trivial as you make it sound...


-which is why I was particularly concerned with convergence and possible broken axles....

good luck with the build!

BTW the P5 isn't too bad a hub apart from the shifting arrangements; the clickbox on the RHS is a problem area. I have seen one or two SRAM P5 hubs where one of the selector keys jumped out of position or the control rods got in a tangle but these things are usually not show stoppers provided you are willing to open up the hub and fix it.

The earlier Sachs 5s hub (with two toggle chains) is arguably a more reliable hub, provided you use two separate shifters, one for each toggle. I think with a little effort you might be able to convert the P5 to this shifting arrangement, and in time you might have to; already the clickboxes for the P5 are difficult to find as spare parts I think.

cheers

Yes I did a quick read around and nobody seemed to have much issue with the P5 apart from the clickbox. I had to buy the shifter and clickbox separately- they are still out there at the moment, mainly NOS in Germany*. Also bought the 'elephant' cable setting tool and a flat 18T sprocket. With that and a 32T chainring I am pushing the lower limit for gearing the hub, but not too concerned due to the permissibility of tandem and cargo use. With 26x1.9" Schwalbe Landcruisers I will get a utility and off road friendly 31"-69" gear range.

*So I should probably buy a couple of spares while I still can...

ddashk
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Re: Old AW hub on 126mm dropouts

Postby ddashk » 13 Mar 2016, 8:36am

I have an aw3 running in a 130mm hybrid frame. It has thick alu dropouts (7-8) and it is just on the edge. I have no thread extending past the wheel nuts, the nuts and axle end flush with each other. I have run this set up for nine months now and never had any issues. I cycle to and from work, up and down curbs every day and use a lot of bumble canal paths at the weekend. The only thing to watch out for is to get the RH nut which is a combination wheel nut and chain guide. When I used a regular nut there was no threat left to mount the hollow chain guide nut. In theory a 126mm frame would leave 2mm of thread to spare each side. A sheer luxury.