cold setting

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eddie
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cold setting

Postby eddie » 1 Feb 2016, 12:24am

Has anyone got an experience of cold setting an older steel frame, I've read up on Sheldon Brown on it, and it seems fairly straight forward. When I asked in a few LBS, the response was not very helpful, from why not just spring it, to sorry we don't do that. Are there any big risks, if it's done with care, as I cant see SB telling you how to do it, if it a totally bad idea. I'd be glad of any advice or experience from others

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: cold setting

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 1 Feb 2016, 12:44am

Hi,
you will get some very lengthy replies on how to do it.
I would do it but once done there will be a small risk of weakness be it probably very small.

Many years ago I hit a parked car on the way to work and had to straighten the frame on a bench before I could carry on.
I rode that bike for three months before one of the visibly damaged frame tubes at head came apart just before a very steep (45 MPH) hill :lol: Put my hand around the parted tubes when cornering and made it home.
That's extreme and hopefully your mod would be minor.
Its not anything that any shop or any other profession could risk advising or doing for obvious reasons.

Carefully done it will be comparatively safe.
Springing it more than say 5mm? overall will be more unsafe as there will be a constant stress via the springing of the frame.
Steel is not too bad just watch for kinking or denting of the tubes.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

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Gattonero
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Re: cold setting

Postby Gattonero » 1 Feb 2016, 8:11am

eddie wrote:Has anyone got an experience of cold setting an older steel frame, I've read up on Sheldon Brown on it, and it seems fairly straight forward. When I asked in a few LBS, the response was not very helpful, from why not just spring it, to sorry we don't do that. Are there any big risks, if it's done with care, as I cant see SB telling you how to do it, if it a totally bad idea. I'd be glad of any advice or experience from others


Most of the times re-spacing ("cold setting") a steel frame is fine, although you better be a bit more specific about what you want to achieve.
Re-spacing the frame may not be the only solution you will need :idea:
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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531colin
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Re: cold setting

Postby 531colin » 1 Feb 2016, 8:51am

Eddie
The alternative to cold setting is to over dish the wheel or find obsolete parts.
However, there are many people working in bike shops who have never cold set a frame, and lack the experience to
1) check the frame in the first place
2) cold set, and re-check
A framebuilder will have the knowledge, experience, and tools to do the job properly, and will charge a price which reflects their skill.
LBSs get too many "customers" who have one job done and then expect the shop to guarantee every nut bolt and inner tube on their bike for the next five years, on the basis that "It was all right before you touched it!"

Its a job you can do yourself, on the basis that in the unlikely event of something going wrong, you will have to deal with it. Pulling out one side at a time gives more control that doing both at once.
Check the frame as here...http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59332&hilit=string more here... http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=102301&hilit=string
Check the dropout alignment by mounting the wheel outside the dropout......a big thing like a wheel makes mis-alignment much more obvious.

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CREPELLO
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Re: cold setting

Postby CREPELLO » 1 Feb 2016, 8:59am

Just be careful when dealing with the drive side chain stay. If it is indented on both sides for tyre and chain rings, it will yield to force rather more easily than the non drive side stay.

robc02
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Re: cold setting

Postby robc02 » 1 Feb 2016, 11:15am

Just be careful when dealing with the drive side chain stay. If it is indented on both sides for tyre and chain rings, it will yield to force rather more easily than the non drive side stay.


That's a good point to remember if decide to go ahead. It can be disconcerting if you do the non-driveside first and have got a feel for how hard you have to pull/push, only to find the driveside moves rather more easily! I did one just a few weeks ago and had to remind myself to take it just a bit at a time to avoid overbending.

For the same reason I would use the Sheldon, one side at a time, method. If you try to spread both sides at once, e.g. with a length of threaded rod between the dropouts, or pulling and pushing on each side at the same time, there is a good chance one side will move more than the other - almost certain if there are two indentations on the driveside.

eddie
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Re: cold setting

Postby eddie » 1 Feb 2016, 8:24pm

Thank you one & all for your sound advice, in particular for the links (very useful) and even for the horror story of the frame coming apart ( glad you made it home ok). It does seem a something I might have a go at, with due care of course.Sorry that I did not see the same sort of thing asked last Dec by someone.
In reply to some questions, my thinking was this. It's an old 1970s Cluad butler steel frame, not 531 or anything, but I've had it from new (my friend)I've got a Mercian with ergo leavers, and I love how simple it makes life, now as I'm not a fan of straight bars to get the same kind of thing on the Cluad with drops, as it will only take a 5 speed block, I either need to go for Gevenalle shifters, which as you can get even with a friction shift should work a 5 speed ok. Or I open the frame a bit to take a 8 or 9 block/cassette and STI leavers.Not so much that I want the extra gears, but that's as low as I've seen.
I suppose as a last resort I could leave well alone and stick with the D/T leavers. Any way thanks for your help & advice
yours Eddie

Bicycler
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Re: cold setting

Postby Bicycler » 1 Feb 2016, 9:20pm

Bar end shifters are another option. Most have a friction setting which is fine for shifting a 5 speed block.

Watching a beloved frame being cold set is not for the faint hearted!

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Gattonero
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Re: cold setting

Postby Gattonero » 1 Feb 2016, 9:52pm

I suppose is a frame of a good quality, with cast (not pressed steel) lugs etc. so to re-space it to 130mm will be easy. The trick is to keep it aligned.
As always, it's all related how good are you with tools, and how much time you have.
If so, best thing you can do is to screw some dummy BB cups so to clamp the frame in a vice by the BB. That's the strongest point of the frame and will help enormously in making a good job.
With a string passing via the headtube to the rear dropouts you can check the alignment, it's not a very precise system but it works better than nothing.

By the way, depending on the shape of the rear dropout, you may struggle with 9 speed and/or some sizes of top sprocket (may rub on the inner face of the dropout)
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Gattonero
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Re: cold setting

Postby Gattonero » 1 Feb 2016, 9:53pm

Bicycler wrote:...
Watching a beloved frame being cold set is not for the faint hearted!


I've seen it done properly many times, and is ok. It's a gentle and precise job, does not involve hammers, scaffolding poles, etc.
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

Brucey
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Re: cold setting

Postby Brucey » 1 Feb 2016, 10:30pm

if you don't want to reset a 5s frame there are other options eg

- use a compact 6 speed freewheel (fits in the same space as a 5s more or less)
- use a 5s shimano cassette hub

both are now unusual items which can be found used if you are prepared to hunt for them. The hubs are in the 120-122mm OLN range.

A compact 6s freewheel has the same sprocket pitch as 7s/8s so any index system which works that will shift OK on such a freewheel.

If you use a cassette hub of that vintage it will be a UG-splined hub so will require the use of a threaded top sprocket which secures the others. HG sprockets will fit in the other positions, provided you modify the spline slightly. A 5s freehub body is ~24mm wide; this will usually allow a '7 from 10' cassette to be fitted, using the six largest sprockets from a 10s cassette, plus the obligatory threaded top sprocket. UG top cogs were often 14T so a 10s cassette that starts 11,12,13,14 is a good starting point for this kind of build (you weren't going to use the 11,12,13 that much, were you....? :wink: ).

IIRC Compass bicycles offer a modern 5s width cassette hub; not cheap, but this does accept HG sprockets and an HG lockring, so is much easier to live with.

As well as STIs/Ergos and various things that fit to the brake levers there are/were suntour butterfly levers, Kelly's takeoffs, Paul's thumbies, stem mounted levers, bar ends, bar ends mounted on accessory brackets, and various DIY arrangements. Depending on how you ride and what you like any of these might work for you.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Gattonero
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Re: cold setting

Postby Gattonero » 1 Feb 2016, 10:41pm

I won't even mention going down the old Uniglide path, it's obsolete and parts will be harder and harder to find.

My opinion is that it's much easier to respace the frame, using 8 or 9sp setup for which there's no shortage of spares in the near future
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

Ross K
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Re: cold setting

Postby Ross K » 2 Feb 2016, 7:36am

My main winter bike these days is my old from-new 1985 531c frame.

For years it was 122mm with a 126mm wheel forced in.

A few years ago I went to 130mm so I could use a modern 8 speed wheel.

I used the Sheldon method then bent the dropouts parallel using the jaws of a big adjustable wrench. The thing is to do the springing gradually and as gently as possible.

I've since put a few thousand miles on it with no problems. The reason a bike shop won't do it is mainly the risk of cracking the seat stay or chain stay bridges which I think is the main gamble, but mine were fine going up in width by 8mm.

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syklist
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Re: cold setting

Postby syklist » 2 Feb 2016, 9:08am

This is the home made tool I used to spread Brompton rear forks.
http://mistymornings.net/blogs/mm/?p=174

Some pictures of it in use
http://mistymornings.net/blogs/mm/?p=45
So long and thanks for all the fish...

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Gattonero
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Re: cold setting

Postby Gattonero » 2 Feb 2016, 1:57pm

It takes long to crack bridges and other stuff, unless they were already dodgy but in such case cracks/rust are easy to spot and the frame is doomed anyway.
Steel used in bicycle frames is quite springy, one has to pull a couple of inches to crack the seat/chainstays. With about an inch pulled off, the frame would move one mm or two. Heat-threated steel is a different beast, better don't go there, but std. chromoly is workable, it's all about guessing how much it will spring back
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...