VSF FAHRRADMANUFAKTUR - TX-1000 Rohloff. Thoughts please?

[syklist]

For purely road use I woudl feel that bike is a bit overbuilt. .

<snip>
Compared to a Thorn Nomad I once turned upside down my T400 is a lightweight

[pwa]

I have a Rohloff hub on a tandem but I would not choose one for a solo bike. Great on a tandem, though. So simple to use.

With regard to reliability, ours has been perfect for almost a decade now. Still on the same cables. I've changed the oil from time to time (it uses about an egg cup full) and that's about it. And unlike other hub gears the indexing is in the hub itself. The twist grip shifter is just a cylinder that turns, with no clicks. I'm not sure how it could go wrong, but if it did, anything that could pull the two cables would allow you to change gear. Cable problems should not stop you. You can even remove the cables completely and change gear at the hub itself. Obviously that is inconvenient and would only be done in extreme circumstances. I do think the Rohloff suits that bike.

Skylist, yes, if it is lighter than a Nomad that is a good thing. Both bikes are a bit OTT for purely road use, and I would only buy one of them if I had the intention of venturing onto gravel tracks. In those circumstances they might be just the right sort of bike.

[hamster]

I'd choose vee brakes rather than Magura, for simplicity of maintenance. Can they be set wider if a spoke breaks and a wheel goes out of true?

Magura pads have more travel than Vs so no problem there. Mine sit 4mm off the rim each side with the lever still not touching the bars when the wheel is locked - that's for an HS77 drop lever. On my flat bar tandem it's even more.

Maguras have much more progressive modulation than Vs, which in my experience are more grabby. They are heavier though. I have a set of Maguras which I fitted in 1997 - they have never needed anything more than new pads. No adjustment, nothing. In that time they have had numerous flights, spent 3 years in the tropics, moved back to the UK etc etc.

[Brucey]

There's a lot of talk about the Rohloff here, but it is only one part of the bike.

FWIW the Rohloff hasn't been 'the same for 20 years'; they have revised very many parts in the gear, whilst retaining the same architecture. There are occasional reports of flange failures (which until proven otherwise I will assume are related to alloy selection/corrosion/damage from spoke heads) but the hub otherwise seems pretty reliable. Like any other IGH it is certainly possible to cause one to 'die of unnatural causes' but even so I'd suggest this is comparatively rare.

The bottom line is that you either want one or you don't; the same can be said of other parts on the machine or indeed the whole machine, come to that. Like any other bike it won't suit every need and it won't suit every rider.

If I am critical, in addition to my previous comments I note that VSF have specced 32h hubs front and rear. This'd be OK on a 26" wheeled machine but seems a bit daft on a 700C wheeled machine, especially given that Rohloff make a 36h hub these days. Similarly the wheels are built with PG 14G spokes; for a bike that is meant to carry a load this seems an odd choice given that there are better, stronger spokes available.

[edit; in addition I note that;

- the chaincase rear section is clearly meant for a bike with shorter chainstays or something; the fit of it doesn't look great in the manufacturer's photos
- the BB height looks quite low; around 10", so convenient, but no aggressive cornering with wide pedals...?
- the cable routing for the Rohloff (which is often difficult to do such that it is both elegant and reliable) on this machine includes a short downhill section near the rear hub; this may prove to be vulnerable to water ingress.]


For me the biggest potential flaw with the VSF is the lack of frame sizes; also (whilst it might be otherwise if you always have a heavy load, for tandems, for those with weak hand grip) I don't think that the maguras offer much advantage vs decent V brakes, which are easier to fix, so I'd probably choose Vs. But hey, each to his own....

BTW the brake boosters are arches that go between the frame bosses (which are the same as those used with V brakes and cantis). The arches stiffen the assembly so making the brakes more effective; one side effect of this is that the running clearance of the brake can be increased slightly; on flexible framesets, maguras without boosters usually need to be set closer to the rim, else the frame flexes and the lever may bottom out at the handlebar before full brake force is achieved.

cheers

[pwa]

I seem to remember that Thorn used to (a may still) offer Rigida (Ryde) Andra rims specially drilled with Rohloff hubs in mind, since the large flange means shorter spokes and awkward spoke angles. The "special" Andra rims had the holes angled to allow the spokes to be aimed directly at the flange holes without undue bending. Presumably this means a slightly more outward angle. Maybe the VSF has that on the rear.

All other things being equal, the 32 spoke rear wheel will be more reliable than a normal 32 spoke rear wheel due the absence of dishing.

[pete75]

Not got a TX-1000 but bought a TX-400 in the summer. It's very similar but with 26" wheels. It's a sturdy well made, well equipped and well finished machine. I paid £1450 for a new machine shipped from Germany and bought it on a whim because I wanted to try Rohloff.

The Andra rims fitted are Rohloff specific and have spoke hole drillings to provide the best spoke angle for a Rohloff hub and are built using spoke lacing recommended by Rohloff. It's not following these recommendations which may lead to hub flange failure. No problem really with 32 spokes on an undished wheel either.

The weights quoted seem heavy but are for a fully equipped machine with Tubus front and rear racks, propstand, mudguards(with a mudflap on the front) , dynohub, lights and even bottle cages and a pump.

My son rides the bike the most and is very happy with it. Only changes made are to fit GP5 grips.

[greyingbeard]

A shop in Cambridge is worth talking to for Fahrrad Manufaktur, may well do a deal or have last years colour at a sensible price
http://www.chrisbikes.co.uk/

[Brucey]

not quite the same thing in several respects but



several models of which are available for £1900 right now

eg http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-reynolds-853-raven-sport-tour-511l-bright-red-rohloff-bike-new-prod39296/

more here

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/clearance-zone-dept756_pg1/

If one happens to fit you and is what you want, it is a pretty good deal (although not markedly cheaper than the VSF once lights and racks are included perhaps).

However I note that being 'a sale item' SJS do not offer their usual 100 day money back warranty on these machines.

cheers

[Freddie]

I suppose the question that needs to be asked is what you intend to use it for OP, as you haven't said. Until you specify, it is hard to say whether this bike is a good choice or not. It is a bit like asking whether a certain car is good, it all depends on the circumstances. A hatchback may be good for some scenarios, but it is no good off road.

More information is required before a meaningful reply can be given.

[PH]

It's not following these recommendations which may lead to hub flange failure.

I had the flange break on mine, after 6 years use and on it's third rim, all built by SJS. That’s the bad news.
The good news is the speed an efficiency with which it was dealt with free of charge despite being out of any warranty period. It didn't stop me riding it and once I'd reported it I was free to try any temporary bodge if needed. As it was I sent the wheel off the following Monday and had it back with a shiny new casing on the Thursday. Current one has outlasted the original as that was eight years ago.

[pete75]

It's not following these recommendations which may lead to hub flange failure.

I had the flange break on mine, after 6 years use and on it's third rim, all built by SJS. That’s the bad news.
The good news is the speed an efficiency with which it was dealt with free of charge despite being out of any warranty period. It didn't stop me riding it and once I'd reported it I was free to try any temporary bodge if needed. As it was I sent the wheel off the following Monday and had it back with a shiny new casing on the Thursday. Current one has outlasted the original as that was eight years ago.

But was the wheel built in the way Rohloff recommend the first time - SJS are a fairly idiosyncratic lot...

[Gattonero]

A wheel has to be done with 3 parts: hub, spokes, and rim.
At some point, one of the 3 will fail, and is best to have a failure in the cheapest and easiest to replace: the spoke.

By the way, 13g (2.3mm) spokes are not allowed by the Rohloff (and many others). I do agree with the above, a touring bike is better with 36h hubs/rims and not 32. Better 36 good quality spokes, than 32 of the the wrong 2.3mm ones.

[MartinC]

A wheel has to be done with 3 parts: hub, spokes, and rim.
At some point, one of the 3 will fail, and is best to have a failure in the cheapest and easiest to replace: the spoke...................................

Flawed logic there. The potential failure modes aren't mutually exclusive. By choosing to have the spokes fail you don't prevent any of the other failures you just choose it as well.

[pwa]

A wheel has to be done with 3 parts: hub, spokes, and rim.
At some point, one of the 3 will fail, and is best to have a failure in the cheapest and easiest to replace: the spoke.

By the way, 13g (2.3mm) spokes are not allowed by the Rohloff (and many others). I do agree with the above, a touring bike is better with 36h hubs/rims and not 32. Better 36 good quality spokes, than 32 of the the wrong 2.3mm ones.

But wheels without dishing can be as strong, or stronger, with fewer spokes. Tension is equal, left and right. That must count for something. I'd be surprised if a 32 spoke undished wheel were not at least as reliable as a 36 spoke dished wheel. But I'm no expert. Anyone able to shed any light on this?

[Brucey]

A wheel has to be done with 3 parts: hub, spokes, and rim.
At some point, one of the 3 will fail, and is best to have a failure in the cheapest and easiest to replace: the spoke...................................

Flawed logic there. The potential failure modes aren't mutually exclusive. By choosing to have the spokes fail you don't prevent any of the other failures you just choose it as well.

well, quite.

Rohloff have their own ideas about spoking their hubs; they are idiosyncratic too (they wouldn't bother making anything other than a 32h shell for years...it doesn't get much more idiosyncratic than that... ) .

IME if you build with good quality DB spokes (of the correct gauge(s)) you almost invariably get a better, stronger wheel than with PG spokes; for any given wheel loading the cyclic stresses at the hub and the rim are reduced when you use DB spokes vs PG ones, and are less again when you use more spokes rather than fewer. The typical reason not to do these things (on a touring bike) is to save money.

Sorry, but saving 50p on spokes when you are lacing up a £1000 hub is just mental. The wheels on this bike (and any similar) would be quite a lot improved (being both stronger and lighter) by being built with 36 DB spokes and the rear would be likewise better again if it had 40 spokes in it.

In any decent rim braked wheel the objective should be to have the rest of the wheel (hub and spokes) to last out several rim's worth of hard use; however to achieve that the wheels need the correct specification and IMHO 32x PG spokes is not it, not on this kind of bike.

cheers