Handlebar position for long legged rider

[531colin]

I would be interested to see an "overlaid" photo or two.
An observation....you are wearing glasses and in some pictures a peaked cap.
Years ago I ditched glasses for riding, in favour of contacts. Glasses and peaks make you hold your head up in order to see where you are going, I don't know if thats why your back is so straight?
I think you did well to find any 40mm stem.....then I found a black 45mm one!....https://www.evanscycles.com/deda-cortissimo-alloy-fixie-stem-EV213307

[Zanda]

Colin's got it. There's an interaction between prescription spectacles and riding position. Prescription specs can make the wearer take on an upright cycling posture in order to see clearly.

There are a few reasons for this. The wearer's vision is crystal clear only when they're looking through the optical centre of the lens. With the head down, as when cycling in the drops, the (top) edge of the lens is being used rather than the centre, and vision is slightly distorted. And of course when looking over the top of the frame there's no benefit from the lenses. So the wearer instinctively cranes his neck back in order to compensate. The stronger the prescription, the more variance between centre and edge, and the more important it is to look through the centre to see clearly. And the smaller the spectacle frames, the less top edge there is to look through when your head is tilted forwards. As if to compond the problem, glasses can slide down with bumps in the road, so you have to bend back even further just to see properly.

It may be possible to mitigate this through choice of spectacle frames. So your vision when cycling may be better if you choose specs with larger frames, frames that sit slightly closer to the eyes, and frames with an adjustable nose bridge. It may also be worth mentioning to the technician that you ride a bike with drop bars and therefore need clear vision when looking through the top part of the lens, as they may be able to take this into account when marking the optical centres.

Certain types of lens suffer from more edge distortion than others. IME, lenses to avoid are ones with very high refractive index (which seem to give lots of paralax distortion) and those designed to be extra flat on the front surface (which create a 'goldfish bowl effect' for the wearer when off centre).

If this means buying a pair of specs to wear when cycling, then so be it. Those specs might have large(r) steel frames and lenses with standard refractive index, mounted with their centres a few mm higher than normal. If the lenses self tint in daylight, that might be a useful feature too.

Anyway, when it comes to bike set up, glasses wearers will be more comfortable with a relatively upright riding position. If achieving this position with drop bars requires a top tube shorter than the seat tube - and/or smaller wheels to prevent toe overlap - those are legitimate requirements. A frame that's too big would be a more significant problem for a glasses wearer than it would be for someone who doesn't need specs to see.

I've found that just two cm difference in top tube length can make a surprising difference to my comfort and my sense of bike control. So as a specs wearer at 5' 10" tall with a 31" inside leg, I'm happy on tourers with 54cm or 55cm top tube, but 56 is a stretch and 57 feels quite unwieldy.

If you're looking for a replacement frame with a short top tube, you might consider vintage bikes. Top tubes on bikes from the 1980s and earlier are generally shorter than those on new bikes (though old frames either restrict you to old components or require modification to accept modern parts).

[peterh11]

I would be interested to see an "overlaid" photo or two.
An observation....you are wearing glasses and in some pictures a peaked cap.
Years ago I ditched glasses for riding, in favour of contacts. Glasses and peaks make you hold your head up in order to see where you are going, I don't know if thats why your back is so straight?
I think you did well to find any 40mm stem.....then I found a black 45mm one!....https://www.evanscycles.com/deda-cortissimo-alloy-fixie-stem-EV213307

Sure, I will post a couple of overlay pics - need to get the transparency right and label key contact points - maybe later this week. I'll take a look at the stem you linked to, thanks.

Re glasses and cap - sorry this is completely misleading! I'd never ride this bike any distance in these glasses precisely because of the problem you and the next poster commented on. In the Noodle photo at least, I'm looking at the ground a few yards away.

On this bike, I wear a pair of Optilabs wrap-around specs which give me all-round vision almost as good as contact lenses, and normally a helmet - never a peaked cap like this. I have a peak for the helmet but only wear it when riding into the sunset or similar.

What you see me in is a pair of varifocals for working on the bike and a cap to keep the sun off my bald head. I did wear contacts for a while but a combination of hay fever, eye infections and needing to read maps with increasing presbyopia made me give them up.

[peterh11]

sloping top tubes neednt raise the front of the bike, they generally start a lot lower down.
But IF you went to a custom builder you ould have whatever you fancied of course.
Bound to be somethnig out there thats close enough to be adjustable to fit.

Sure - understood. But sloping top tubes have the effect of making the front of the bike taller relative to the stand-over height, which can be helpful for some people, but really not needed in my case, as you can see in the pictures I have the bars almost as low as I can on this frame. However the stand-over height is fine for me. If I do ever get a custom frame built, I'd go for a horizontal top tube. Even if it doesn't really change the bike's handling/feel I like the look better.

do you have long ARMS ?

Middling length arms, about average for my height which I guess means longer than average for my torso. I'm still getting my head around the idea that I want my bars lower. Until recently I could not have ridden like this as my hamstrings were a bit short and my back stiff. I have read various articles about how lack of flexibility and core strength can affect riders of my proportions more than others and my experience seems to support this idea. I'm continuing to work on these!

[Samuel D]

Out of interest, how are you working on your flexibility? I think I need to get a book on stretching. At the moment I’m just doing three stretches I half-remember from PE class at school.

I normally wear glasses while riding (my eyes water in the wind with contact lenses), but I am pretty sure they only affect my neck angle and not the rest of my position, and only while riding hard with a low back.

[greyingbeard]

thats 2 more stretches than I remember...is it working ?

[Samuel D]

Ha! Not quickly enough.

My goal is to pedal more smoothly and for longer periods of time with a very low back (i.e. a very aero position). I love the feeling of bridging a gap between groups at 40+ km/h, and with my limited power, that requires a seriously aero position. Just from experimentation, I can tell I go faster the lower I get (for short distances), even though I can feel my power falling off in those extreme positions. I suspect that improving my ability to pedal smoothly with my chin bouncing off the bars would pay dividends, and that means more flexible hips joints, hamstrings, etc.

[peterh11]

Out of interest, how are you working on your flexibility? I think I need to get a book on stretching. At the moment I’m just doing three stretches I half-remember from PE class at school.

Well, that would be a whole new thread. I do a few minutes of exercises daily - hamstring, calf and quad stretches as well as back. Also core strength exercises and working the stabiliser muscles in the legs. A good book will get you started but go gently and do stretches when you are warm - later in the day is good, or after a ride (though be careful after a hard ride).

If you want to get serious about this then I suggest you find a local recommended sports physio - a couple of sessions will get you an assessment of your flexibility/strength and a seat of exercises to maintain and work on weaknesses. Money well spent IMO. But when the physio tells you to do 10 repetitions 3 times, start off with less and gently, or you will hurt yourself. I have worked with several physios over the past few years and I collected the exercises and built up my own routine.

I normally wear glasses while riding (my eyes water in the wind with contact lenses), but I am pretty sure they only affect my neck angle and not the rest of my position, and only while riding hard with a low back.

Proper sports glasses from a supplier like Optilabs or Alpina are brilliant. They keep the wind out of your eyes while offering good visibility. You can get ones which are basically wrap-around shades with prescription inserts but I prefer the ones with proper wrap-around prescription lenses (mine are from Optilabs) because they offer better all-round vision and my eyelashes tend to smear inserts. Also help with hay fever! They feel funny when you first wear them because of the shape of the lenses but now my eyes adjust in a few seconds when I put them on.

[Samuel D]

Thanks for that thoughtful reply.

[yostumpy]

Another observation, if I may. Upthread, you mentioned that you commute daily on an upright, flat bar bike. This could be the whole problem. Maybe you spend so long on the short reach commuter, that when you get on the tourer it instinctively feels completely wrong. Might I suggest you put the commuter away for the summer, and use the tourer every day. Then fine tune it as you go. I bet when you then get back on the old commuter in the winter, you'll think " I cant ride this any more"

[Stevek76]

Certain types of lens suffer from more edge distortion than others. IME, lenses to avoid are ones with very high refractive index (which seem to give lots of paralax distortion) and those designed to be extra flat on the front surface (which create a 'goldfish bowl effect' for the wearer when off centre)

Abbe number is the one to pay attention to for the chromatic aberration, higher values are better. It's not often advertised upfront though as that might put people off getting the thinner and more expensive lenses which are generally worse in this respect. There's not a direct link with refractive index though as it depends on the material as well, polycarbonate is quite bad.

[peterh11]

Another observation, if I may. Upthread, you mentioned that you commute daily on an upright, flat bar bike. This could be the whole problem. Maybe you spend so long on the short reach commuter, that when you get on the tourer it instinctively feels completely wrong. Might I suggest you put the commuter away for the summer, and use the tourer every day. Then fine tune it as you go. I bet when you then get back on the old commuter in the winter, you'll think " I cant ride this any more"

Interesting thought, thanks. I am aware of this feeling but I only notice it for the first 5 minutes on the tourer. I ride more miles on the tourer than I do on the commuter, (my commute is 15 minutes across town) and I have each bike set up to suit the intended use. The commuter is hub gears with chain guard, hub brakes and lights, flat pedals, upright position - all set up to ride in work clothes, whereas the tourer is set up as a sport bike, so it feels completely different to ride!

Once I can get the Noodle handlebars back on the tourer, the reach to the hoods is going to be about 3cm longer even with a new shorter stem than it has been recently. With the Noodles on the longer stem it is definitely too far - as I commented before the reach will be then as far as Colin's and he definitely has a longer body than I have.

[peterh11]

Certain types of lens suffer from more edge distortion than others. IME, lenses to avoid are ones with very high refractive index (which seem to give lots of paralax distortion) and those designed to be extra flat on the front surface (which create a 'goldfish bowl effect' for the wearer when off centre)

Abbe number is the one to pay attention to for the chromatic aberration, higher values are better. It's not often advertised upfront though as that might put people off getting the thinner and more expensive lenses which are generally worse in this respect. There's not a direct link with refractive index though as it depends on the material as well, polycarbonate is quite bad.

I don't have issues with the Optilabs lenses though they took a little bit of getting used to. However my distance prescription is quite mild - around -2.5 or so and with mild astigmatism. The company warned me off getting varifocals unless I really needed them, and I think they were right, I generally prefer doing active sports in plain distance correction glasses.

[horizon]

Out of interest, how are you working on your flexibility? I think I need to get a book on stretching.

I was out on the road on Sunday (battling the hail) in Dorset. As I rode along, I moved my hands backwards and forwards from the hoods to the "shoulders" of the bars to see how it felt. What I found (and have found in the past) is that as I moved my hands back, my elbows dropped, by back curved inwards and my legs found some more power for the pedals. My torso was actually lower. It was just a much more effective and natural position.

When I moved my hands forward to the drops (and it's a long 12 cm), my arms straightened, my back arched outwards and my shoulders stiffened - it just felt all wrong (and is wrong by all accounts).

I wish there was a way of describing and measuring these effects more succinctly - I'm not sure they show up that well in a photo. What I surmise is that my arched back and stretched arms ensured I reached the hoods - it's not flexibility but distance that seemed to be the problem.

[531colin]

I would still be interested in "overlaid" photos.......using the BB spindle as the "fixed point" we could learn a lot, I think. Our verbal descriptions are not that useful?
(unfortunately, i don't know where to start to overlay photos)

Horizon, when "forcing the gear"...say 2 gears more than comfortable up an incline, so low cadence, pushing hard....I get a bit more push by sliding back in the saddle and getting more knee extension.
It sounds to me that you are tilting your pelvis forward to get more power out of your hamstrings (stretched by tilting pelvis forward)

If you look at Steve Hogg here https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/ on effective torso length, all the riders have their back arched to different degrees....so whose are the "all accounts" that say arching your back is "wrong"?