Surly Long Haul Trucker

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Heltor Chasca
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Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby Heltor Chasca » 28 Apr 2016, 9:51pm

FarOeuf wrote:I have a DT with LHT forks (v-brakes). 11kg, all with low-end components. Toured all over the place, raced, commuted, etc. Build and rebuild to whatever spec you need. No pitfalls, other than people forever telling you it's heavy...


+1 I've got racks, a dynamo hub, 26x1.75 tyres, double wrapped tape, bar bag fittings, GPS fittings, USB fittings, oversized fuel bottle cages, rude decals, etc which all add up to get you to the 17kg. To me touring isn't about speed. I'm lucky that I'm strong and I'm happy packing a camp chair, solar panels, cache batteries, media devices, my Berletti, coffee grinder etc. At 45kg the bike performs beautifully. I think if I was doing some remote Afrikan touring with another 10l of water, then I wouldn't be so positive.

I'm possibly not as aerobically as fit as I was when I was 15, but I now know how to have a comfortable time from the back of a bike...b

FarOeuf
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby FarOeuf » 28 Apr 2016, 10:04pm

meic wrote:
Lightweight wheels probably set me back the same


Are you expecting to get lightweight wheels with 135mm hubs or are you planning to extend 130's like I did?


my (non-disc) Ultegra hub (6800) is less than 100g lighter than my disc XT (pre 11sp) hub. I think the non-disc XT hub weighs only 10g more than the Ultegra hub.

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meic
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby meic » 28 Apr 2016, 10:05pm

Dura ace chainset is extremely tough and at 650gr including the BB about a pound lighter than the FSA Triple equivalent.


The FSA Gossamer Exo 50-39-30 on my titanium bike weighs 820g inc BB.

My LHT weighs 3,970g for frame and forks, which is over 4Kg with a headset fitted.
I think that is a kg more than my titanium bike, it is hard to make up a kg on parts like derailleurs but not so hard on things like wheels. You only have to pay once for a frame though.

I wear out high quality rear derailleur (XT) in just 15,000 miles, at which point I put the jockey wheels into a cheapo like a Tiagra and get 15,000 out of that.
I have taken rather the opposite approach to yourself on my titanium bike by saving weight with an expensive frame and money by fitting it with cheapish components.
Yma o Hyd

PH
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby PH » 28 Apr 2016, 10:07pm

pete75 wrote:Don't believe people who say V brakes are incompatible with drop bars - it's the levers which matter not what they're fastened onto.

I don't think anyone has said that. They're not compatible with drop bars and STIs as your choices demonstrate.

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meic
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby meic » 28 Apr 2016, 10:08pm

FarOeuf wrote:
meic wrote:
Lightweight wheels probably set me back the same


Are you expecting to get lightweight wheels with 135mm hubs or are you planning to extend 130's like I did?


my (non-disc) Ultegra hub (6800) is less than 100g lighter than my disc XT (pre 11sp) hub. I think the non-disc XT hub weighs only 10g more than the Ultegra hub.


But do you find wheels that have been built up with XT hubs and lightweight rims?
I have an Open Pro on a disk XT (self built), not much heavier than a 105, but it doesnt compare to low-spoke count lightweight stuff.
Yma o Hyd

Brucey
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby Brucey » 28 Apr 2016, 11:01pm

53x13 wrote:.5kg weight penalty over my current frame doesn't bother me. I've researched a lot of frames and the LHT ticks all the boxes. Dura ace chainset is extremely tough and at 650gr including the BB about a pound lighter than the FSA Triple equivalent. Same goes for the derailleurs. I like the quality too. Lower end Shimano IMO wears out pretty quickly, especially Tiagra. Like the man said, you pays your money!


if you have already made up your mind what exactly are you enquiring about?

Last time I looked DA chainsets have ring sizes that are not really appropriate for touring. The last DA chainset I owned had some fancy coating on the chainrings that all flaked off.

Depending on how much you weigh, how strong you are, and how much luggage you are carrying, a LHT might be just the ticket or indeed rather unsuitable.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

pete75
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby pete75 » 28 Apr 2016, 11:11pm

PH wrote:
pete75 wrote:Don't believe people who say V brakes are incompatible with drop bars - it's the levers which matter not what they're fastened onto.

I don't think anyone has said that. They're not compatible with drop bars and STIs as your choices demonstrate.


Ah but some folk are so focused on STI's for drop bars they say exactly that.
Fitting STIs and V brakes demonstrate the pair are incompatible, all my setup demonstrates is that Tektro RL520 work with V brakes.

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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby PH » 28 Apr 2016, 11:24pm

pete75 wrote:Fitting STIs and V brakes demonstrate the pair are incompatible

Ah but some folk are so focused on drop bars they say exactly that.
Flat bar STIs and V brakes work perfectly well together :wink:

53x13
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby 53x13 » 29 Apr 2016, 5:04am

Brucey wrote:
53x13 wrote:.5kg weight penalty over my current frame doesn't bother me. I've researched a lot of frames and the LHT ticks all the boxes. Dura ace chainset is extremely tough and at 650gr including the BB about a pound lighter than the FSA Triple equivalent. Same goes for the derailleurs. I like the quality too. Lower end Shimano IMO wears out pretty quickly, especially Tiagra. Like the man said, you pays your money!


if you have already made up your mind what exactly are you enquiring about?

Last time I looked DA chainsets have ring sizes that are not really appropriate for touring. The last DA chainset I owned had some fancy coating on the chainrings that all flaked off.

Depending on how much you weigh, how strong you are, and how much luggage you are carrying, a LHT might be just the ticket or indeed rather unsuitable.

cheers



That would be the DA 7700, about 15 years ago! Times and technology for Shimano have evolved dramatically since. I use it on all my bikes and it's literally bomb proof. Like I said in the OP I'm looking to customise my LHT, which is why I bought a frame only. I really don't need any more 'it's not for you', thanks very much.

I'm looking for advice on most of the following:

V brakes vs minis.

Wheel combo for lightweight 26" wheels.

Tyre selection for fast, all day touring/some off road.

Potential conversion to full carbon, disc fork. (I've seen 2 forks which are virtually identical in rake ect to the stock steel)

Saddle lay back for most comfort (the LHT has a very different geo to my current steel frame)

Potential bar end handlebar mount and climbing 'blippers' to run Di2 (no STIs) see:

http://carltonbale.com/shimano-di2-ever ... d-to-know/

Performance over 'rough stuff'. I'll be doing c. 500 miles of the Camino in Spain, and at least 20% is over very rough tracks

If I can get the bike down to 10.5kg (which now seems very feasible) I'd be thinking about a dropper suspension seat post, which would only cost me another 250gr.

I should say money is no object on this build! This will be my touring bike for the next ten years at least.

Cheers!

Brucey
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby Brucey » 29 Apr 2016, 7:51am

53x13 wrote: ..... I use it on all my bikes and it's literally bomb proof. Like I said in the OP I'm looking to customise my LHT, which is why I bought a frame only. I really don't need any more 'it's not for you', thanks very much.

I'm looking for advice on most of the following:

V brakes vs minis.

Wheel combo for lightweight 26" wheels.

Tyre selection for fast, all day touring/some off road.

Potential conversion to full carbon, disc fork. (I've seen 2 forks which are virtually identical in rake ect to the stock steel)

Saddle lay back for most comfort (the LHT has a very different geo to my current steel frame)

Potential bar end handlebar mount and climbing 'blippers' to run Di2 (no STIs) see:

http://carltonbale.com/shimano-di2-ever ... d-to-know/

Performance over 'rough stuff'. I'll be doing c. 500 miles of the Camino in Spain, and at least 20% is over very rough tracks

If I can get the bike down to 10.5kg (which now seems very feasible) I'd be thinking about a dropper suspension seat post, which would only cost me another 250gr.

I should say money is no object on this build! This will be my touring bike for the next ten years at least.

Cheers!


OK , so three pages in now and you finally tell us what you are driving at; 26" wheels....? That is important information.

I don't know whether you have offered up a modern DA chainset to a 26" wheeled LHT frame but there is a very real chance that it won't even fit without clattering the chainstay; IIRC these frames are designed to run fairly fat tyres and may well force you to run with an MTB chainline (and chainring sizes) rather than use 'road' stuff. Maybe someone with such a frame can comment on that? I'd certainly check this at a very early stage.

However my main objection to using DA chainrings for your purposes is that you will probably struggle to get the gearing low enough with the chainring sizes on offer. Gearing preference does vary but most folk who have ridden the routes you propose would specify a bottom gear in the low 20" range if not lower. You might be able to do this (using a DA chainset) with some MTB cassettes that run 40T + sprockets but this then predicates your transmission options for rear mech etc.

26" wheels and tyres have lots of choice but there are some areas where there is less than you might want. I'd always err on the side of having 36h rims and hubs (using lightweight DB spokes to keep the weight down if necessary) but there isn't so much choice in quality 36h 559 stuff. Even 32h there are not so many rims that are really good; Mavic don't seem to make a double-eyelet rim in 26" any more, and the rims they do make are not immune to cracking and seem to have rather thin braking surfaces. Rims like Sputniks are strong and have lots of meat in the braking surface, but they are a fair bit heavier.

Similarly with tyres, on a bike like that most folk would use something 40-50mm width and (even without much of a tread) such tyres will be reasonably swift on the road and ought to handle dry gravel at least. Vittoria randonneur Pro are worth looking at; some folk would choose Big Apples... maybe there are some more options that are worth thinking of.

If you go to a front disc brake that is one less rim to worry about wearing out, but.... you may struggle to find a fork with a sufficiently low crown height that won't 'modify' the steering geometry (out to about 70.5 degrees head angle or something). Most carbon disc forks are meant for 700C and if they have room for fat tyres they have crown heights that are perhaps a bit taller than fits perfectly on your frame....? [ Surly say 376mm 'fork length' for 26" LHT frames vs 390mm length for 700C wheeled LHT frames]. Maybe someone knows of a suitable fork for you but I don't imagine it is a commonplace item.

For brakes a simple option is to use a V at the back, a V (or MTB cable disc) at the front, and V-pull brake levers for dropped bars. I suspect that if you try to use Mini-Vs with mudguards on that frame, you may need to drop the mudguards below the fork crown/brake bridge in order to get enough clearance between the brake and the mudguard. This could in turn limit tyre choice and/or mudguard clearance.

You can (with application of enough time, effort, and money) build almost anything. But I think if you left a dozen different people with your frame, a mission to build a bike for the purpose you intend and a warehouse full of bike components, you might come up with a dozen different bikes, none of which are quite like the one you envisage. 'Fast on the road' means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I've built quite a few touring oriented bikes with 26" wheels and they have varied from something that was like a 'rigid race MTB with slicks and dropped bars' to something altogether more tank-like. I shall be interested to see how yours turns out!

cheers
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FarOeuf
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby FarOeuf » 29 Apr 2016, 8:17am

Brucey wrote:I don't know whether you have offered up a modern DA chainset to a 26" wheeled LHT frame but there is a very real chance that it won't even fit without clattering the chainstay; IIRC these frames are designed to run fairly fat tyres and may well force you to run with an MTB chainline (and chainring sizes) rather than use 'road' stuff. Maybe someone with such a frame can comment on that? I'd certainly check this at a very early stage.


just measured my 700c LHT (26" is the same), and the chainline is about 54mm to the centre chainring. I run a Sora chainset (mountain bike rear hub), and there's loads of space at the chainstay, on a 56cm.

Brucey wrote:If you go to a front disc brake that is one less rim to worry about wearing out, but.... you may struggle to find a fork with a sufficiently low crown height that won't 'modify' the steering geometry (out to about 70.5 degrees head angle or something). Most carbon disc forks are meant for 700C and if they have room for fat tyres they have crown heights that are perhaps a bit taller than fits perfectly on your frame....? [ Surly say 376mm 'fork length' for 26" LHT frames vs 390mm length for 700C wheeled LHT frames]. Maybe someone knows of a suitable fork for you but I don't imagine it is a commonplace item.


Surly DT and LHT forks are interchangeable.

EDIT: oohh, didn't realise we were talking carbon forks.
Last edited by FarOeuf on 29 Apr 2016, 8:27am, edited 1 time in total.

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531colin
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby 531colin » 29 Apr 2016, 8:19am

Perhaps if you had asked that instead of this at the outset, you might have got more useful replies.

53x13 wrote:Can get one of the above frames pretty cheap second hand. What would be the pitfalls in building up a LHT for distance cycling. What's the best group/wheels to buy and can anyone recommend an effective braking system? New to the forum.


Saddle layback? Its your ass, I suggest you put it where you will be comfortable. Nobody can help you with that unless you are asking about how to set up your riding position? Just match the layback to what you use now, if its comfortable. If your riding position is right, why do you need suspension/dropper posts for touring? Its day after day steady riding, not throwing yourself down a mountain for 10 minutes. You need to "ride" the thing, not sit on the saddle like a sack of spuds. I'm driven to adjust saddle height by less than 5mm switching between shoes, I can't bear the thing moving around under me.
If you are using electric shifting, you can have whatever brake levers you like, in which case full-size vees are a no-brainer, unless you want disc front, in which case disc front it is. Rear mini-vee can be a pain due to close pad clearance and lost motion. (and what Brucey says about mudguard clearance)
What do you want to know about carbon forks? Inch and a half tapered steerer is off-limits because the head tube isn't big enough. Other than that as you say, you need to match axle to crown race seat and offset to the original forks, or consider the effect of any changes on the steering. 20mm length is worth about a degree. I have very little experience setting up steering geometry for 26" wheels, but doesn't the head angle vary with size for the 26" Truckers? That might give you an idea about what they think is OK.
For tyres you trade road performance for off-road comfort. I figure when I'm off road, I'm somewhere nice, so I don't mind going slow or walking a bit. I'm 11 stone, slicks inch and a half or less for me. I wouldn't bother with tread unless you,re going in the rainy season. You'll find recommendations for Vittoria on here, if you look.
No recent experience of 26" wheels.
Just checked LHT chainstay length is the same for all...700 and 26"

FarOeuf
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby FarOeuf » 29 Apr 2016, 8:26am

meic wrote:But do you find wheels that have been built up with XT hubs and lightweight rims?
I have an Open Pro on a disk XT (self built), not much heavier than a 105, but it doesnt compare to low-spoke count lightweight stuff.


I'd build my own wheels, but low-spoke wheels are a bit pointless on touring bike. but (reading what's been written since) maybe I'm missing the point of what the OP is trying to build. also seems questionable to use 26" and low-spoke count, surely 700c rims are where you find real lightweight/carbon stuff? I think we probably all tried to build a lightweight touring bike at some point, and then after we tour we replace all that stuff with lower spec durable kit. oh well...

Brucey
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby Brucey » 29 Apr 2016, 8:30am

FarOeuf wrote:...just measured my 700c LHT (26" is the same), and the chainline is about 54mm to the centre chainring. I run a Sora chainset (mountain bike rear hub), and there's loads of space at the chainstay, on a 56cm.


but a current Dura-Ace double will run a chainline about 10mm smaller than that, with limited scope for adjustment...?

Surly say you can use a 42-53 double on an LHT, but not what chainline you can have. In their 'spew' on bottom brackets they specifically mention that large chainrings may necessitate 'a longer BB spindle than normal' which may translate to 'non-starter with a 'road' HT-II chainset. I also suspect that it may be slightly different between LHTs for 26" and 700C wheels because the latter has clearance for narrower tyres than the former.

Surly DT and LHT forks are interchangeable.


-sure, but not carbon like the OP wants?

cheers
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FarOeuf
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Re: Surly Long Haul Trucker

Postby FarOeuf » 29 Apr 2016, 8:33am

Just thinking, you (OP) should maybe look up the Transcontinental Race and see the bike builds for that. Also the Facebook group has lots of discussion about Di2, carbon forks, discs and long distance fast touring. Though, so far as I know, I'm the only one racing on a Trucker :)