Chinese Carbon Frame + Seat post issues on another bike

[nathb]

Hi all,

Recently I've sent my Planet X London Road commuter back to PX under warranty as the seat tube is too large - causing a rather loud creak. I'm going to push to get my money back and use it as an opportunity to try some cheap chinese carbon.

I've specifically looking at this frame:




So far I've managed to find it listed as:
Ribble - CR3
Flyxii - FLX-FR-602
ICAN - AC059
Velobuild - CX-002

Does anyone know if it goes by any other names?

$430 delivered with the headset and spare hanger, seems a good deal to me.. but I want to check it's the best.

[[XAP]Bob]

The best won't be cheap and Chinese.

I have no evidence for this, save that I suspect that the QC on the branded frames will be slightly better, and could easily see the parts which failed QC being sold unbranded.

The best may well be Chinese, and it certainly won't be the most expensive...

[hamster]

It's a bit more than QC.

The amount of layers (and specification of fibres) in the layup also massively affect cost. You can use the same moulds and build with thinner / less layers producing something superficially the same but either more fragile or flexible. It's a real problem to differentiate between high-tech light construction on the one hand and under-built on the other.

IN the end, buyer beware. It might be the same or it might not.

[nathb]

Thanks guys.

I'm sticking with the main Chinese brands and steering well clear of copies such as the Chinarello.

The ones I've listed have a decent internet presence and feature quite heavily on (RBR, WW, CC, STW etc).

Just double checking I've looked/researched all the manufacturers of this open mold frame as this is a friendly forum.

Everything from this is going to be bolted to it apart from the seat post/clamp:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r129 ... 472F6F.jpg

[[XAP]Bob]

Yeah, we're not saying you can't pick a gem - But it's going to be hard to know whether you have a gem or an imminent fracture...

[honesty]

Have a read of this http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/faking-it/019442 some very interesting information about fakes etc.

[cycleruk]

Having once considered a frame from China I eventually went for a UK supplier.
Main concern is if there is something wrong then what warranty do you have with the Chinese company?
At least with the likes of Ribble you have your consumer rights.

[nathb]

Have a read of this http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/faking-it/019442 some very interesting information about fakes etc.

Thanks, but this isn't a fake it's from a open mold frame from a highly regarded manu/disti i.e. Flyxii and Ican bikes.

Ican even have an amazon presence: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... rd_i=typ01

The issues with Chinese arise from "non branded" copies such as the Chinarello copies which are made in sweatshops with no QC and sell for £150.

[53x13]

My lbs have bought c. 50+ carbon frames from this vendor. They have an excellent returns system and you don't pay a penny to send it back if it's not 100% what you want (paying by PayPal). So far (18 months) there's been no mechanical issues with the frames purchased. One person did have a head on collision with a car, which pretty much wrecked the frame, but that would when any frame, of ANY material!! His advice was look for a vendor on EBay with 10000+ feedback and have a look at the negs to see if there are any real QC issues or just niggly people complaining about late delivery ect.

One very important thing to bear in mind is the IMPORT tax on a frame, normally £60-90. Sometimes you get away with it, more often than not you don't. As far as I recall, anything over £115 in value will incur import duties.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... 7&_sacat=0

[53x13]

Ribble source their own frames exclusively from two Chinese manufacturers. I think up until a year ago they would sell you frames, but since EU anti dumping laws came into place they won't sell you new frames sourced from China for love nor money They do have a veritable Mountain of old stock Sportive frames at £429.99 but they are a pretty old (2012) design. Carbon frames are a lot like the Apple iPhone. Everyone knows they are sourced in entirety in Chinese sweatshops, but you'd never know at the retail end because they are so cleverly and effectively marketed. Most of the 'cheap' Chinese phones use exactly the same premium parts and engineering as the iPhone, but they are astute enough to realise there would be very few purchasers indeed in China for a $1000 phone. Its the same from the big box cycles retailers like Giant, Trek and Specialized. When you pay £900 for a Specialized carbon frame, you're literally paying a surplus £600 to their marketing machinery, corporate structure, retail outlets and of course their profit motive.

Such is life!

[honesty]

Ribble source their own frames exclusively from two Chinese manufacturers. I think up until a year ago they would sell you frames, but since EU anti dumping laws came into place they won't sell you new frames sourced from China for love nor money They do have a veritable Mountain of old stock Sportive frames at £429.99 but they are a pretty old (2012) design. Carbon frames are a lot like the Apple iPhone. Everyone knows they are sourced in entirety in Chinese sweatshops, but you'd never know at the retail end because they are so cleverly and effectively marketed. Most of the 'cheap' Chinese phones use exactly the same premium parts and engineering as the iPhone, but they are astute enough to realise there would be very few purchasers indeed in China for a $1000 phone. Its the same from the big box cycles retailers like Giant, Trek and Specialized. When you pay £900 for a Specialized carbon frame, you're literally paying a surplus £600 to their marketing machinery, corporate structure, retail outlets and of course their profit motive.

Such is life!

No it's not. read the link to bikebiz I posted above. The big manufacturers have completely different setup to those open model models, which is different again to the fakes.

[53x13]

Ribble source their own frames exclusively from two Chinese manufacturers. I think up until a year ago they would sell you frames, but since EU anti dumping laws came into place they won't sell you new frames sourced from China for love nor money They do have a veritable Mountain of old stock Sportive frames at £429.99 but they are a pretty old (2012) design. Carbon frames are a lot like the Apple iPhone. Everyone knows they are sourced in entirety in Chinese sweatshops, but you'd never know at the retail end because they are so cleverly and effectively marketed. Most of the 'cheap' Chinese phones use exactly the same premium parts and engineering as the iPhone, but they are astute enough to realise there would be very few purchasers indeed in China for a $1000 phone. Its the same from the big box cycles retailers like Giant, Trek and Specialized. When you pay £900 for a Specialized carbon frame, you're literally paying a surplus £600 to their marketing machinery, corporate structure, retail outlets and of course their profit motive.

Such is life!

No it's not. read the link to bikebiz I posted above. The big manufacturers have completely different setup to those open model models, which is different again to the fakes.

The BikeBiz article is written for and by retailers interested in protecting their (quite large) profit margins. As such, you can pretty much take it with a pinch of salt : vested interests. You have to consider the editorial when reading articles like this. The bottom line is, almost ALL of the best carbon frames in the world are now made in China. And they get better and better with every iteration, each year. Manufacturers like Woke Cycle (Shezchen) produce over 200 variants of carbon frames and manufacture for Giant, Specialized and Merida.

Even the legend Colnago have all their carbon manufactured (and painted) in the far east except the C60, which is 'allegedly' still made in Italy. They've been caught out a few times with similar moulds being used by other manufacturers, all originating in the far east.

Don't believe the (anti marketing) hype.

When you're shelling out £3500 for an Italian carbon frame, just remember what you're paying for: £500 for the frame, and £3000 towards 'marketing, design, retail outlet upkeep and naked profiteering from gullible fools'

[nathb]

Ribble source their own frames exclusively from two Chinese manufacturers. I think up until a year ago they would sell you frames, but since EU anti dumping laws came into place they won't sell you new frames sourced from China for love nor money They do have a veritable Mountain of old stock Sportive frames at £429.99 but they are a pretty old (2012) design. Carbon frames are a lot like the Apple iPhone. Everyone knows they are sourced in entirety in Chinese sweatshops, but you'd never know at the retail end because they are so cleverly and effectively marketed. Most of the 'cheap' Chinese phones use exactly the same premium parts and engineering as the iPhone, but they are astute enough to realise there would be very few purchasers indeed in China for a $1000 phone. Its the same from the big box cycles retailers like Giant, Trek and Specialized. When you pay £900 for a Specialized carbon frame, you're literally paying a surplus £600 to their marketing machinery, corporate structure, retail outlets and of course their profit motive.

Such is life!

No it's not. read the link to bikebiz I posted above. The big manufacturers have completely different setup to those open model models, which is different again to the fakes.

The BikeBiz article is written for and by retailers interested in protecting their (quite large) profit margins. As such, you can pretty much take it with a pinch of salt : vested interests. You have to consider the editorial when reading articles like this. The bottom line is, almost ALL of the best carbon frames in the world are now made in China. And they get better and better with every iteration, each year. Manufacturers like Woke Cycle (Shezchen) produce over 200 variants of carbon frames and manufacture for Giant, Specialized and Merida.

Even the legend Colnago have all their carbon manufactured (and painted) in the far east except the C60, which is 'allegedly' still made in Italy. They've been caught out a few times with similar moulds being used by other manufacturers, all originating in the far east.

Don't believe the (anti marketing) hype.

When you're shelling out £3500 for an Italian carbon frame, just remember what you're paying for: £500 for the frame, and £3000 towards 'marketing, design, retail outlet upkeep and naked profiteering from gullible fools'

Yeah!
That's precisely what my research has led me to believe too!

I think companies such as Dengfu, Hongfu, Flyxii, Ican etc are all getting their carbon bits from Fly Bikes China (another large manufacturer).



But this wasn't what I wanted the thread to turn into...

[53x13]

It's hard for people who have invested in expensive carbon fibre frames to believe (as it is for people who've bought into the iPhone swizz) that there are only a few manufacturers in China making Everything , or as near as dammit vis a vis big box manufacturers offerings.

You can see why the retail trade would go to any lengths to rubbish this reality, as the prospect of educated buyers shopping direct via Alibaba or EBay likely scares them half to death. I've seen at least two dozen frames (in the flesh) sourced this way, indeed my lbs now sources ALL his frames like this rather than rely on a British distributor who does exactly the same thing but charges him a 70% premium for a wholesale product. As Alibaba becomes more 'household', and it will, more and more switched on people will source their premium goods this way.

Doubtless someone will come along and for (a much smaller) profit will either negotiate direct or retail online to distribute Chinese in Europe or Britain. It's a good business opportunity for someone. My best friend runs a bike shop and I know from what he's said that many, many lbs are sick to the back teeth of the profits they give away to UK distributors (who you can count on one hand). If you saw the profits that distributors make and compare that to the meagre profit margin of your local bike shop, your jaw would be literally dropping.

It's not just profits, but all the red tape and 'regulations' that come with it. My lbs for instance, once they've sold a particular model of a bike they are obliged to immediately buy another one from the distributor (under pain of losing the dealership) even it's they can't afford to do so, or prefer another model!

It's this stranglehold that sourcing direct can break. Long may direct buying continue.

[nathb]

It's hard for people who have invested in expensive carbon fibre frames to believe (as it is for people who've bought into the iPhone swizz) that there are only a few manufacturers in China making Everything , or as near as dammit vis a vis big box manufacturers offerings.

You can see why the retail trade would go to any lengths to rubbish this reality, as the prospect of educated buyers shopping direct via Alibaba or EBay likely scares them half to death. I've seen at least two dozen frames (in the flesh) sourced this way, indeed my lbs now sources ALL his frames like this rather than rely on a British distributor who does exactly the same thing but charges him a 70% premium for a wholesale product. As Alibaba becomes more 'household', and it will, more and more switched on people will source their premium goods this way.

Doubtless someone will come along and for (a much smaller) profit will either negotiate direct or retail online to distribute Chinese in Europe or Britain. It's a good business opportunity for someone. My best friend runs a bike shop and I know from what he's said that many, many lbs are sick to the back teeth of the profits they give away to UK distributors (who you can count on one hand). If you saw the profits that distributors make and compare that to the meagre profit margin of your local bike shop, your jaw would be literally dropping.

It's not just profits, but all the red tape and 'regulations' that come with it. My lbs for instance, once they've sold a particular model of a bike they are obliged to immediately buy another one from the distributor (under pain of losing the dealership) even it's they can't afford to do so, or prefer another model!

It's this stranglehold that sourcing direct can break. Long may direct buying continue.

Amen!

There is a website, which acts as an intermediary, they do take some money for this though circa $70 in this case: http://www.velobuild.com/cx-002-carbon- ... p0027.html