Sturmey Archer 5 Speed

[blazingsaddles]

Why specifically Sturmey Archer? SA are not what they once were, in fact the present SA has nothing in common with the SA of old. Have you considered using Shimano and SRAM IGH's?

At the moment I have a Sram imotion9 on the back wheel. Its been very fiddly. It would always need regular readjustment, even after fitting a new cable. Some new grease from Brucey settled things down a lot. Then about a year later the even number gears would creek, not terribly, but enough to make me wonder what was up, so I found myself using just the 5 odd numbers. This was ok until the rear sprocket came off whilst riding about 18 months ago. I haven't touched it since. I just don't trust it anymore. Don't even want to fit a new sprocket retaining circlip, which looks ok anyway - might be a worn retaining groove on the hub! Backup from Sram is not there. So I thought Sturmey Archer.

I had thought of Shimano also, but I think that Sturmey Archer provide the best backup with parts.

Thanks

[Brucey]

FWIW if a sprocket retaining clip pops off in service, I would always suggest to check that

a) the clip can be fully seated (sometimes there are burrs, bad tolerance etc and the clip won't seat properly even if it is tapped down) and
b) you have not got a 3/32" sprocket in which it is made so that the three lugs that engage with the driver are staggered to the right when the sprocket is installed. If they are, they can wear on the grooves in the driver such that high torque will push the sprocket and the retaining clip off the driver.

If you want the sprocket to be secure, try to use a 1/8" sprocket or a 3/32" one where the lugs are staggered to the left when the sprocket is installed.

cheers

[blazingsaddles]

Thanks Brucey. Will have a good look at its seating. Pretty sure its a 1/8" sprocket. Something else learned.

All the best

[breakwellmz]

Why specifically Sturmey Archer? SA are not what they once were, in fact the present SA has nothing in common with the SA of old. Have you considered using Shimano and SRAM IGH's?

At the moment I have a Sram imotion9 on the back wheel. Its been very fiddly. It would always need regular readjustment, even after fitting a new cable. Some new grease from Brucey settled things down a lot. Then about a year later the even number gears would creek, not terribly, but enough to make me wonder what was up, so I found myself using just the 5 odd numbers. This was ok until the rear sprocket came off whilst riding about 18 months ago. I haven't touched it since. I just don't trust it anymore. Don't even want to fit a new sprocket retaining circlip, which looks ok anyway - might be a worn retaining groove on the hub! Backup from Sram is not there. So I thought Sturmey Archer.

I had thought of Shimano also, but I think that Sturmey Archer provide the best backup with parts.

Thanks

If something is reliable you won`t need spare parts
I`ve ran/run and stripped/serviced both SA and Shimano IG hubs and wouldn`t use
anything but Shimano now.
Don`t Shimano do a 5 speed Nexus now?

[Brucey]

news alert! Guess what, shimano hubs break too!

In fairness I think that if you fit a new shimano hub and just use it, it is more likely not to break than a new SA hub. But when either hub breaks you have a spectrum of repair possibilities ranging from

a) - buy a new centre (might as well buy a new hub in most cases)
b) - buy new spare parts
c) - find used spare parts

I think that both b) and c) are more likely to work with an SA hub than with a shimano one (in the UK, at least) simply because of the number of SA hubs there are in service and the spares support that has existed. However as SA introduce new models the critical mass of useful old spares won't be there and they don't seem to want to supply spares for older hubs that they no longer manufacture. As time goes on options b) and c) may become less viable even for SA hubs.

Shimano IGH spares are often awkward to source. If you look at the EV techdoc you can find part numbers but that is not to say that they are actually available. In some cases shimano have never supplied these parts individually (only in larger -and more expensive- subassemblies) and in many cases these spares have only been available via Shimano Europe. So for example Nexus 8 and Nexus 7 hubs often break pawls, but these spares are simply not available, so

"for want of a nail (pawl that ought to cost about £1.50), the kingdom (well, hub anyway) is lost".

Madison (the UK shimano importer) have taken the view that if they have not imported a given hub, they don't have to supply spare parts for it, even though it may have been fitted to thousands of bikes manufactured for/in, and sold in, the UK. So for example if you want to get Nexus 4 spare parts (e.g. for your UK-built Claud Butler town bike ) from Madison, they will turn round and say 'not our problem'.

The Nexus 5 hub is available in Japan only AFAICT. It appears to be a hamstrung Nexus 7, in that it has some similar subassemblies as a Nexus 7, but arranged to give fewer gear ratios.

cheers

[Gattonero]

...
I had thought of Shimano also, but I think that Sturmey Archer provide the best backup with parts.

Thanks

Meh.
Trying to find the internals for a normal RF5W for a chap, it's a real pain as Sturmey does not list them anymore on the "new" website, nor are they on the "Heritage" website. All you can find is the ones with the short 148mm axle, doh!

[MikewsMITH2]

I have an unused professionally refurbished SA 5 speed with hub brake that I bought for an abandoned hub braked project. It was taken off a wrecked Pashley Guv'nor as the owner got a new wheel off the insurance. He said it was perfect, but I sent it away to be refurbed anyway. I sold the rest of the project parts to someone on here. Been sitting in my workshop for a couple of years. Happy to let it go for cost of the refurb (£40), as I doubt I will use it now. PM me if interested.

[Brucey]

...Meh.
Trying to find the internals for a normal RF5W for a chap, it's a real pain as Sturmey does not list them anymore on the "new" website, nor are they on the "Heritage" website. All you can find is the ones with the short 148mm axle, doh!

I've only seen one such internal that was genuinely beyond repair and even in that hub (which was the most broken hub I'd ever seen) the axle itself was probably re-usable.

I'd thus suggest that, if you can't simply repair the original internal, you could always think of building a new internal up on the old axle perhaps?

BTW if you want a (W) 5s internal to be reliable, there is something to be said for stripping it anyway; one of the failure modes of the (W) 5s hubs is that the spring loaded screw that holds the axle key assy together can back out and then it can seem as if both suns are trying to lock to the axle at the same time (this is no illusion... ). If this part is reassembled with a drop of threadlock, the hub will be more reliable.

cheers

[Gattonero]

Yes I was thinking to strip the 148mm unit and rebuilt it on the original 175mm axle. The hub has a broken 2nd gear, but I'm not sure I will take the time to do so and reuse a part that may fail. On the other hand, problems in the modern hubs have always been due to pawls and as you say the sliding key. Have you ever recalled a damaged axle? I can only remember this happening in Rickshaws (well, enough said!)

[Brucey]

I don't think the 5s (W) axle is especially strong, (not once it has that enormous groove in it) but it seems to be quite normal for these hubs to require some other kind of repair before the axle breaks.

I have often wondered if the axle would be best positioned one way round in terms of resisting fatigue damage, since it will presumably see higher (more damaging) fatigue stresses bending one way vs the other.

cheers

[breakwellmz]

news alert! Guess what, shimano hubs break too!

In fairness I think that if you fit a new shimano hub and just use it, it is more likely not to break than a new SA hub. But when either hub breaks you have a spectrum of repair possibilities ranging from

a) - buy a new centre (might as well buy a new hub in most cases)
b) - buy new spare parts
c) - find used spare parts

I think that both b) and c) are more likely to work with an SA hub than with a shimano one (in the UK, at least) simply because of the number of SA hubs there are in service and the spares support that has existed. However as SA introduce new models the critical mass of useful old spares won't be there and they don't seem to want to supply spares for older hubs that they no longer manufacture. As time goes on options b) and c) may become less viable even for SA hubs.

Shimano IGH spares are often awkward to source. If you look at the EV techdoc you can find part numbers but that is not to say that they are actually available. In some cases shimano have never supplied these parts individually (only in larger -and more expensive- subassemblies) and in many cases these spares have only been available via Shimano Europe. So for example Nexus 8 and Nexus 7 hubs often break pawls, but these spares are simply not available, so

"for want of a nail (pawl that ought to cost about £1.50), the kingdom (well, hub anyway) is lost".

Madison (the UK shimano importer) have taken the view that if they have not imported a given hub, they don't have to supply spare parts for it, even though it may have been fitted to thousands of bikes manufactured for/in, and sold in, the UK. So for example if you want to get Nexus 4 spare parts (e.g. for your UK-built Claud Butler town bike ) from Madison, they will turn round and say 'not our problem'.

The Nexus 5 hub is available in Japan only AFAICT. It appears to be a hamstrung Nexus 7, in that it has some similar subassemblies as a Nexus 7, but arranged to give fewer gear ratios.

cheers

" They (New SA hubs) can't be completely awful I suppose, but that is not to say that they are any better than the previous generation of hubs "

" In fairness I think that if you fit a new Shimano hub and just use it, it is more likely not to break than a new SA hub "

" Nexus 8 and Nexus 7 hubs often break pawls " - I bet an awful lot more don`t break pawls, do you have real stats on this compared to SA hubs?
Bad news travels fast as you know, you don`t hear about the majority of people that have good NHS service, only the very few that don`t.

SJSCs seem to have plenty of Shimano Nexus bits-

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/search/?ter ... hub&page=4

I think you would have to admit to having a SA bias Brucey

The vast majority of cyclist have not the inclination, facilities or skills (unlike yourself) to delve into a IGH, they just want to get on and ride the thing.

[Brucey]

I don't have any stats (how could I?) but I reckon I have seen as many broken Shimano IGHs as broken SA ones in recent years.

Not being able to buy simple stuff like pawls for Shimano IGHs is just plain stupid.

cheers

[Abradable Chin]

Basically if you shift slowly from 3rd gear to 4th in the workstand, you should start to pick up 4th gear when the shifter/cable has moved no more than 1mm from the 3rd gear position. The cable pull on that shift is about 4mm and the dogs for 4th gear are ~2.5mm deep, so you need another 2.5 to 3mm of cable movement to securely engage 4th gear.

This is really useful info. I haven't been able to get a X-RF5 set up properly. With the band on the toggle chain in line with the end of the axle in 2nd, 5th gives a skipping feeling like a new chain on a worn cassette. With the toggle chain loose, 5th is present and reliable. I'm fed up playing tunes with the toggle chain. I took the hub apart. I didn't know what I was doing, but I cleaned it (the pawls looked immaculate) and relubed it, but the shifting is no better. The EP00 grease seems to be oozing out, but maybe I shouldn't have used it in the cup & cone bearings! I'll try your set up method, then give up.

[Brucey]

It is worth checking the cable pull of the shifter. I have seen a few (W) shifters where the total cable pull was around 18mm or so; this isn't enough and faulty top gear engagement is likely.

However if the cable is at all draggy, the same thing can happen even with a shifter that has the correct cable pull.

I recently examined a new SA 5 (W) grip shifter and AFAICT it had a longer cable pull than the previous one I looked at, and it was also fitted with a better quality cable, too.

BTW if you have had the hub apart, you need to be absolutely certain that you have set the internal clearances in the hub correctly (the setting of the RH cone). The hub won't work at all well if this isn't right.

cheers

[mjr]

If you don't want to strip the hub, use a grease gun to add semi-fluid grease via the hollow axle, (having selected top gear and unscrewed the control rod).

The longer nozzle/needle on a pet syringe (the sort for dispensing food supplements/medicines) is slower (generally narrower than a grease gun and grease is not easy to draw or pump through it) but allows it to be put further down inside a hollow axle and I think spread more grease further into the hub before it squirts back out the axle end.