Electronic Shifting

[Annoying Twit]

IMHO there's an attitude of buy a bike wreck it Dad'll buy me a new one,it's because there's a lot of money sloshing around and bikes in real terms are cheaper than ever.
It didn't apply to my generation because a bike was a very worthwhile possession to be prized and looked after coz you wouldn't get another so easy.
I'm 63 and can remember if it was a hot day and there was a fishing match on the local canal,we'd go along the bank asking the anglers if they wanted any errands running.
The deal was go to the shop for a bottle of Tizer or Jusoda and the reward was the bottle for us to take back afterwards,I once made 2 shillings

My son tried that. He 'needed' a new bike because the brakes and gears weren't working well and it was claimed to be 'worn out'. I took it to the shop for a service and he was impressed when it came back. (I maintain my own bikes but mostly put my partner and son's bikes into the shop.)

[bigjim]

It is a generational thing. They now don't need a bike for school as they are transported and picked up by car. I ride past a newish 1000 pupil school in the week. The new bikesheds stand empty while the massive carpark is overflowing.They are probably just as mechanically capable as the older generation, if taught, but they don't need to be.

[wahoofish]

I was one of those that had to keep my own bike going as a kid and the skills learned then have always stood me in good stead.

However, my bikes go for a service fairly regularly and I tend to leave major maintenance in the hands of a trusted mechanic. My logic is that I have very limited time and I would rather pay for someone else's time servicing my bikes than do it myself. That way I can get the bike sorted during the week and not waste precious weekend hours fixing bikes


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels

[bigjim]

I find it quite soporific maintaining and cleaning my bikes. Plus I have had enough bad experiences with dodgy jobs been done by the LBS.

[Annoying Twit]

It is a generational thing. They now don't need a bike for school as they are transported and picked up by car. I ride past a newish 1000 pupil school in the week. The new bikesheds stand empty while the massive carpark is overflowing.They are probably just as mechanically capable as the older generation, if taught, but they don't need to be.

We don't own a car. I tried to talk my partner into us getting a Nissan Leaf now that there's a new model with a bigger battery. But, she didn't want that either. I don't think it's a good idea to just go ahead and buy one (or any car) unilaterally

I find it quite soporific maintaining and cleaning my bikes. Plus I have had enough bad experiences with dodgy jobs been done by the LBS.

When it works I find it an ego boost, and I was (e.g.) very proud of the wheel I rebuilt. When I buy a crank and find that it's square taper instead of diamond, then I don't feel so good about it

[wahoofish]

I find it quite soporific maintaining and cleaning my bikes. Plus I have had enough bad experiences with dodgy jobs been done by the LBS.

Me too, unfortunately with a busy job and kids that need ferried between sports and lawn to mow and stables to muck out and dogs that need to be walked and bicycles to be ridden etc etc, I find that any time I try and invest time repairing bikes, I get pulled away and distracted and end up rushing things and lose the pleasure .


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels

[Manc33]

No one needs to try 11-speed to know the physics of it dictates worse shifting than having less sprockets.

[amediasatex]

No one needs to try 11-speed to know the physics of it dictates worse shifting than having less sprockets.

define worse, properly configured 11sp shifts quicker, and smoother, with less interruption to drive, to me that's better

If by worse you mean less reliable in the long run, or more prone to damage, or more prone to issues with misalignment then you might have a point, but the physics of it alone do not dictate a worse shift, if anything the opposite, less deflection and less movement means quicker and smoother shifts.

And don't think I'm just saying it because I'm trying to justify the latest and greatest, I don't own any 11sp kit, but I have ridden on it a fair bit. I'm not going to labour the point, but you cannot make black and white statements like that based on incomplete theoretical assumptions with no practical experience. To continue the the physics angle...you've made a hypothesis, now go and test it.

If you live your life assuming you're always right and don't try new things you might find yourself missing out on some great benefits, 11sp may not be one of them, but it might be

[Annoying Twit]

No one needs to try 11-speed to know the physics of it dictates worse shifting than having less sprockets.

define worse, properly configured 11sp shifts quicker, and smoother, with less interruption to drive, to me that's better

If by worse you mean less reliable in the long run, or more prone to damage, or more prone to issues with misalignment then you might have a point, but the physics of it alone do not dictate a worse shift, if anything the opposite, less deflection and less movement means quicker and smoother shifts.

And don't think I'm just saying it because I'm trying to justify the latest and greatest, I don't own any 11sp kit, but I have ridden on it a fair bit. I'm not going to labour the point, but you cannot make black and white statements like that based on incomplete theoretical assumptions with no practical experience. To continue the the physics angle...you've made a hypothesis, now go and test it.

If you live your life assuming you're always right and don't try new things you might find yourself missing out on some great benefits, 11sp may not be one of them, but it might be

Interesting points. I would presume that given sufficient money and high level engineering, that a 22 speed could be built that would shift as well as 105 11 speed. But, it would be prohibitively expensive.

[mig]

why are gear ratios called 'speeds'? 11 speed etc

[Annoying Twit]

why are gear ratios called 'speeds'? 11 speed etc

Does the chain proceed at a different speed in different gears?

Is it because that for different gears (e.g. 70" and 90"), the bike will go at a different speed for a constant speed of rotation of the pedals?

[Manc33]

...but the physics of it alone do not dictate a worse shift...

They do.

More sprockets in the same width (or less) cassette with a thinner chain, does physically have to mean worse shifting. Some of that might be "alleviated" with a longer cable throw on 11s, but it still doesn't change the fact that there's more sprockets in the same space and it can only make shifting more temperamental.

I had a record once like that (De La Soul album) with about 7 or 8 tracks on each side, as opposed to the usual 3 or 4 tracks like on every other album. Its the only album I have ever owned where the needle would skip between two grooves - no prizes for guessing why. I used to have to put a couple of 2p coins on the needle, to play the record. It ruined a the needle and the record at the same time of course, but I got to hear some music.

If you live your life assuming you're always right and don't try new things you might find yourself missing out on some great benefits, 11sp may not be one of them, but it might be

This is a good point but reality is reality. More sprockets in the same space, is reality.

[Cyril Haearn]

...but the physics of it alone do not dictate a worse shift...

They do.

More sprockets in the same width (or less) cassette with a thinner chain, does physically have to mean worse shifting. Some of that might be "alleviated" with a longer cable throw on 11s, but it still doesn't change the fact that there's more sprockets in the same space and it can only make shifting more temperamental.

I had a record once like that (De La Soul album) with about 7 or 8 tracks on each side, as opposed to the usual 3 or 4 tracks like on every other album. Its the only album I have ever owned where the needle would skip between two grooves - no prizes for guessing why. I used to have to put a couple of 2p coins on the needle, to play the record. It ruined a the needle and the record at the same time of course, but I got to hear some music.

If you live your life assuming you're always right and don't try new things you might find yourself missing out on some great benefits, 11sp may not be one of them, but it might be

This is a good point but reality is reality. More sprockets in the same space, is reality.

In engineering there is cost and benefit, isn't that a basic rule when something is changed or improved?
11 speeds might work better but not last as long

[Gattonero]

No one needs to try 11-speed to know the physics of it dictates worse shifting than having less sprockets.

That's the tip of the iceberg.
Modern frames would often have over-complicated cable routing and especially super-flimsy mech hangers and dropouts: how could you ever have a reliable shifting when you can easily move side-to-side the rear mech with one finger??

[Manc33]

No one needs to try 11-speed to know the physics of it dictates worse shifting than having less sprockets.

That's the tip of the iceberg.
Modern frames would often have over-complicated cable routing and especially super-flimsy mech hangers and dropouts: how could you ever have a reliable shifting when you can easily move side-to-side the rear mech with one finger??

As well as this, the new Dura Ace takes the same design as the M810 (Saint) and M972 (XTR) rear derailleurs where instead of having the mech body attached to the frame (or its hanger) these new mechs have a floppy bit of metal attached to the body of the mech and that floppy bit attaches to the frame. This means Shimano have introduced another variable and I know from wiggling my M972 and Saint mechs this is the case.

The shifting is better on my M952 where the mech body itself bolts to the frame, but the M972 also feels flimsy in use and the M952 doesn't. I think they went too far with the M970 stuff (but the shifters are better than the old grey ones). Its not that the M972 shifted slower but it never seemed to have that immediate action about it like the old XTR grey one. This makes sense because the old grey one has no play in it and the newer ones do, regardless of if thats 0.1mm its still there and when the silly cable routing as mentioned above is added in you start to get mid range performance from parts that cost a fortune, which defeats the whole object of running such equipment.