Another legal light topic

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Metal8
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Another legal light topic

Postby Metal8 » 27 Sep 2016, 12:28pm

Don't want to go over old ground really but does anyone know of any prosecutions where legal vs illegal lights has been highlighted?

I know that it could be if a sharp lawyer looked into it very closely but couldn't a valid defence be that almost all bike lights sold in the UK do not conform to the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations?

If they are on, can be seen and do not dazzle oncoming road users (My pet hate :x ) then that should be good enough?

I have Smart and Cat Eye lights, not expensive but do the job in city environs.

One thing, where the hell do you attach lights to if you have a pannier rack and have up and over luggage when the seat post or seat stays can't be seen?
I know I could get a light with built in reflector for the back of the rack but that would be another expense.
Also, I have top bar brake levers on my drop handlebars so no room for lights.
Struggling to find lights to fit where the front reflector is just now.

Vorpal
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby Vorpal » 27 Sep 2016, 12:38pm

Cat Eye lights often meet British lighting standards. They are one fo the few companies that have typically made the effort.

That said, I have never heard of a prosecution for 'illegal' lights as such. There have been efforts in a few places to hand out fixed penalty notices to cyclists who did not have any lighting at all, sometimes withdrawn upon producing a receipt for the purchase of bicycle lights.

Lights can be mounted to rear racks. There are various means for mounting front lights: head tube mounting, front fork mounting, and 'extra' handle bars that give mounting room for lights, computers, etc.
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hamster
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby hamster » 27 Sep 2016, 1:03pm

Simplest way on the rear rack is to bolt on a short section of old handlebar or another round thing - even a wine cork! The rear light then attaches to it in the same way as a seatpost.

Similarly add something to the front with a bit of tube on an old reflector bracket.

thirdcrank
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby thirdcrank » 27 Sep 2016, 4:13pm

Here's one I prepared earlier.

viewtopic.php?p=34903#p34903

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meic
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby meic » 27 Sep 2016, 6:36pm

I have the same light as in TC's picture but as my rack has a vertical plate on the back, I could just screw the lamp directly to it with the supplied self tapping screw in the appropriate hole in the back and none of the other fixings.
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gaz
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby gaz » 27 Sep 2016, 7:22pm

Vorpal wrote:Cat Eye lights often meet British lighting standards. They are one of the few companies that have typically made the effort.

IMO they were one of the last companies to stop making the effort but they have now stopped.

Metal8 wrote:Don't want to go over old ground really but does anyone know of any prosecutions where legal vs illegal lights has been highlighted?

CJ speculated that the driver who killed Michael Mason may have avoided public prosecution as a result of using unapproved lighting: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=92645&p=905970&#p905970 The private prosecution is ongoing.

Most collissions do not lead to prosecutions although there may be civil actions. I would suspect arguments of contributory negligence would be thrown into the ring when lights and reflectors aren't to the official specification. Most civil actions are settled out of court between the parties involved making it difficult to know for certain if the issue is real or imagined.
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby SA_SA_SA » 27 Sep 2016, 9:24pm

gaz wrote:....speculated that the driver who killed Michael Mason may have avoided public prosecution as a result of using unapproved lighting......The private prosecution is ongoing.

The police did not mention it though:
I think this subject came up in a Cycle Q&A answered by the lawyer/solicitor correspondent: as I remember it, he seemed to reckon that a person couldn't avoid criminal prosecution/use as it a defence for hitting a lit cyclist just cos their lamp wasn't 'approved' but it could reduce any compensation to the cyclist. Perhaps there should be a Q&A index (older ones perhaps on wayback machine....possibly done by CJ :) )

EDIT it seems the legal Q&A are not there/findable by me so you'll just have to scan you back issues :) (Pre Paul Tuohy era I think).
Last edited by SA_SA_SA on 27 Sep 2016, 9:40pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby Tangled Metal » 27 Sep 2016, 9:28pm

I got a cateye bracket for the back plate of my tortec rack. It was £4 or £5 and allowed the light.bracket to be screwed into it. You can get a spacerX bracket to take their xlite range that use rubber bands to attach to your bike. This is a round bar that I guess any rubber band or strap fittings for other light brands might fit.

My rack rear plate actually has a rounded shape that might take a rubber strap style of light.

There's a few options for a rear rack I think.

Isn't there out front style light brackets. IIRC topeak does something like that.

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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby mjr » 28 Sep 2016, 10:28am

SA_SA_SA wrote:I think this subject came up in a Cycle Q&A answered by the lawyer/solicitor correspondent: as I remember it, he seemed to reckon that a person couldn't avoid criminal prosecution/use as it a defence for hitting a lit cyclist just cos their lamp wasn't 'approved' but it could reduce any compensation to the cyclist.

It could but I suspect it would be like helmets or hi-vis and they'd need to show that the claimant's negligence contributed to their injuries or loss. I doubt any motorist would be able to claim they couldn't see non-compliant lights as long as they were bright enough, but they may be able to claim they were dazzled... but if dazzled, the highway code says to slow/stop, so it probably won't excuse many collisions.

As I wrote over in this topic's evil twin, feel free to dig around on www.bailii.org if you like. I found only http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2014/977.html that even mentioned lights on a pedal cycle recently and seems to have considered only whether they were visible or not, rather than full compliance.
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Metal8
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby Metal8 » 28 Sep 2016, 5:03pm

It is very interesting about compliant lights.
I'd be worried about the thought of a slick lawyer coming in and saying "your lights don't comply guv so you were also at fault"
Yes thought's of the Michael Mason case.

For the rack, I think I'll either get this http://www.fawkes-cycles.co.uk/1244439/products/smart-pannier-carrier-led-light-bracket.aspx so I can fit my Smart light to it or something like these http://www.fawkes-cycles.co.uk/1244428/products/smart-carrier-fitting-rear-light-80mm.aspx
http://www.tredz.co.uk/.RSP-Tourlite-Rear-Carrier-Light_39073.htm

The front needs a bit more thought but as I have a reflector on the front fork crown/mudguard bit, I can get this
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/lighting-spares/busch-muller-light-bracket-for-fork-crown-254mm-mount/

A pic of the new brilliant Marin Four Corners with no handlebar space :D

Marin front on small.jpg

seph
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby seph » 28 Sep 2016, 9:15pm

I use a smart light on the back of the rack using one of these brackets http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smart-Rear-Pa ... Sw8gVX2W07

I also use a cheap lidl light set. like this, http://www.lidl-service.com/cps/rde/SID ... ight%20Set The lights are good, for £6!, and both have the german k mark, their equivilant to the various BS marks. Under EU law I believe that makes them legal over here too.

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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby Zanda » 29 Sep 2016, 10:53am

Metal8 wrote:...where the hell do you attach lights to if you have a pannier rack and have up and over luggage when the seat post or seat stays can't be seen?


I have a way of attaching any rear lamp to the back of a rack, if that rack has a solid top plate. It keeps the top of the rack clear for luggage. Details here.

Image

http://cyclingfortransport.com/bike/acc ... -on-racks/

Metal8
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby Metal8 » 29 Sep 2016, 11:17am

Zanda wrote:
Metal8 wrote:...where the hell do you attach lights to if you have a pannier rack and have up and over luggage when the seat post or seat stays can't be seen?


I have a way of attaching any rear lamp to the back of a rack, if that rack has a solid top plate. It keeps the top of the rack clear for luggage. Details here.


Great idea!
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Last edited by Metal8 on 29 Sep 2016, 11:21am, edited 1 time in total.

Metal8
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby Metal8 » 29 Sep 2016, 11:20am

seph wrote:I use a smart light on the back of the rack using one of these brackets http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smart-Rear-Pa ... Sw8gVX2W07

I also use a cheap lidl light set. like this, http://www.lidl-service.com/cps/rde/SID ... ight%20Set The lights are good, for £6!, and both have the german k mark, their equivilant to the various BS marks. Under EU law I believe that makes them legal over here too.


Ah, great, that's the one I was looking at. How does it fair with mudguard clearance as I notice it maybe sits lower than many other rack mounted lights?

Was going to buy the Lidl lights but thought what with my Cat Eye and Smart sets, I wouldn't.
Would have been a good purchase at that price.

cotswolds
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Re: Another legal light topic

Postby cotswolds » 29 Sep 2016, 3:55pm

Metal8 wrote:
A pic of the new brilliant Marin Four Corners with no handlebar space :D

Marin front on small.jpg


Bit surprised how close those top brake levers are to the stem. I have a similar setup, but there's a 2 inch gap between the top levers and the stem. Still leaves plenty of room for hands on the tops, and for me, the top levers are in a more convenient position - I don't need to move my hands to them when riding on the tops but they're not in the way.

I used to fit 2 lights (basic blinky + decent cateye) and a gps into that space. (I've since switched to a fork crown mounted dynamo light - I think that's a better place for lights).