Brush-painting a frame?

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oneten
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Brush-painting a frame?

Postby oneten » 24 Oct 2016, 8:55pm

I want to re-paint my Nigel Dean frame and forks and renew the decals (have found a source for these) but I don't feel confident with spraying. For starters, I don't have a suitable space in which to spray or the experience. Therefore, I'm considering brush painting where I can work in the bathroom ( less likelihood of dust).
I'm planning to neutralise the few small rust patches with Jenolite before priming. I'd be grateful for any suggestions as to the type of primer /undercoat/topcoat to use and a recommendation for a clear lacquer to apply once the decals are in place.
Another thing - should I be thinking about traditional solvent based enamel or are modern acrylics an option?
Can anyone please tell me what results they have had with brush painting a frame as compared to a sprayed or powder coated finish? Many thanks!

colin54
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby colin54 » 24 Oct 2016, 10:53pm

I thought there were some good tips in this article on painting motorbike frames to a high standard.

http://www.da7c.co.uk/technical_torque_ ... inting.htm

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meic
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby meic » 24 Oct 2016, 11:32pm

I did a beautiful job with Japlac black gloss applied by brush on top of cellulose primer.
It came off in patches within a year. Preparation is what really counts.

However the application of the Japlac gloss by brush gave a very nice surface finish and the paint itself came off in nice glossy "sheets", leaving primer coated steel beneath. :cry:
Yma o Hyd

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willcee
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby willcee » 24 Oct 2016, 11:34pm

It can be done, albeit no job for an innocent..I used to be a member of the VCC. 12 years ago.. One of their stalwarts with whom i had much contact and deals was a guy called MIKE Baker , a life long cyclist and then a fit 60 year old, with a love of resto the only way, once and correctly.. he did all his own refinishing by brush ... brilliant deep lustre... not a sign of a brush.. anywhere.. and with my experience in the motor trade i have rarely seen such finishes even coming out of any top flight bodyshop paint specialist.. should have a telephone number and if you wish do me a pm and i'll give you his details.. he was at that time based in his own house in Wales.. just over the border 45mins from Hereford if memory serves.. will

fastpedaller
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby fastpedaller » 24 Oct 2016, 11:57pm

I think you have the right approach (having already thought about location)! I have experience of brush painting, and there are a number of things to consider, which I'll attempt to list below.
Brush(es) use the best quality you can afford, and the largest you can comfortably handle (maybe 1/2" to 3/4"?)
Paint - it needs to be specified for brushing slow-drying (long 'open-time').... ie not car cellulose paints or similar. Usually called enamel paints. Yacht paints are good (although costly and large tins), similarly paints for locomotives or canal boats. Paints for 'Airfix' type kits (Humbrol is a brand that springs to mind and gives great results) only available in small tins - would need several tins for a bike, ok if you want a variety of colours, or they used to (maybe still do) sell larger tins which maybe aren't stocked in many shops.
Primer/undercoat Use the primer sold by the manufacturer of the gloss coat/Enamel.
Cleanliness Frame needs to be clinically clean after paint removal - no dust, no grease. So after paint removal clean using tack rags(to remove dust), followed by panel wipe (not white spirit because it contains oils). DO NOT handle frame during the painting, as oils from your hands will contaminate it.
Atmosphere ensure humidity isn't too high (look at manufacturer's guidelines) - so maybe beware use of bathroom!
Speed of application You have to maintain a 'wet edge' with brush painting, so (if right-handed) start from right side on tube near lug/end and paint all round as quickly as possible maintaining a wet edge and moving along the tube to the other end ie don't paint the whole length of tube on one side and then try to do the same on the other side, and end up with 2 'seems' all along the tube.
Good luck. Oh and the clearcoat I can recommend is sold in 75ml container by Winsor & Newton from art shops. It is absolutely clear ie no amber tint, and again has a very long open-time so the brush marks disappear.

niggle
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby niggle » 25 Oct 2016, 8:21am

Paint for brush painting classic vehicles is generally called coach enamel, Tekaloid being a popular brand:

http://www.tools-paint.com/tekaloid-t31 ... Gwodnu0Mfg

Vorpal
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby Vorpal » 25 Oct 2016, 9:10am

As others have said, preparation is key.

Part of this is do *not* leave any visible rust on the frame, anywhere. Remove it, rather than neutralising it.

Unlike many other oxides, rust does not provide any protection to the surface underneath. Even if it is neutralised it can hold some moisture, and the process can continue where you can't see it. Take some steel wool and/or emery cloth to it and make sure that no rust is visible on the surface before you begin cleaning it for priming.
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Brucey
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby Brucey » 25 Oct 2016, 9:55am

re rust removal; my preferred approach is to remove all rust and then to prime with a seriously adherent primer such as an etch-primer, followed by a zinc-bearing undercoat.

However when you say 'Jenolite' there is scope for confusion; original Jenolite is an acidic formulation that removes rust entirely, and (I think) leaves a thin phosphate (ferric phosphate) coating behind. If used correctly this gives a pretty good surface to paint onto (but you will definitely need a primer etc).

However there is also Jenolite Rust converter; this is a (different, organic or organic/mineral mix) acidic formulation that converts rust to a more stable compound/oxidation state (eg tannic acid converting to iron tannate), and encases it in a polymer layer (eg one created in conjunction with 2-Butoxyethanol) that provides a diffusion barrier. If a 'rust converter' generates a dark-coloured surface when used on rust, it is odds-on that it is based on this kind of chemistry. This approach ought merely to slow the corrosion down rather than stop it dead, but in practice this approach can work very well, giving surfaces that are stable enough to be overpainted and then last five or ten years before things go bad again.

However I have not used Jenolite's version of this kind of product and I think that (in general) there are some possible problems that are worth knowing about;

- obviously you need to remove loose/flaking rust before use
- slightly less obviously if the surface is down to bare metal anywhere (i.e. no rust present) then you cannot use this as your only primer
- pitting corrosion; I don't think converter treatments will always work very well on pitted surfaces
- converter quality; not all products of this sort work equally well
- compatibility; not all products of this sort will work well with every paint that you might apply over the top of it.

http://jenolite.net/what.html

lots of info on the interweb if you search for 'rust converter reviews'

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Vorpal
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby Vorpal » 25 Oct 2016, 10:02am

I'm not familiar with Jenolite particularly, but I have, some years ago, attempted to paint over 'neutralised' rust (I had used an industrial product in the US), it only lasted a few years before rusting again.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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oneten
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby oneten » 25 Oct 2016, 3:46pm

Many thanks for all these helpful and encouraging replies. I will now avoid the Jenolite neutralizer and watch out for the humidity of the bathroom (I can use a portable dehumidifier in there). I like the look of the Tekaloid paint on the link you posted, Niggle, and I'm going to invest in a decent brush. I didn't appreciate the importance of keeping fingers off the frame when handling or of not using white spirit to clean the surface - thanks Fastpeddler- likewise the tip about the Windsor and Newton clear lacquer - would never have thought of that!
I'm more confident brush painting than spraying because as an apprentice working on boats, a lot of our work involved preparing woodwork and applying
high gloss paints and varnishes. I came close to getting a 'clip round the ear' one day when I left a locker (cupboard) half painted to go off to lunch and spent ages sanding away the dry edge before continuing next day! :oops: So I am pleased to read your advice about working around the tubes rather than along one side.
I feel I'm doing the right thing going for a brush paint job ( despite my son's skepticism) and am spurred on by the description of the motorcycle article and Willicee's account about Mike Baker, so thanks again. Hopefully avoid the paint coming off in sheets though- that must've come as a shock! :oops:
I'm getting the re[lacement decals from

oneten
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby oneten » 25 Oct 2016, 3:49pm


fastpedaller
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby fastpedaller » 25 Oct 2016, 7:26pm

Teckoloid is a nice polyurethane modified paint, but again I suspect the only available quantity is large eg 1lt. Another thing I didn't mention. Avoid thinning the final coat, as thinning takes away the gloss. Use the specified thinners if thinning the earlier coats (ie not white spirit) I'd suggest after the primer (and then rubbing down with very fine wet and dry, de-dusting and degreasing) unless the undercoat is very close to the final colour, it's a good (and often used method) to mix undercoat and topcoat 50/50 and thin a little so it flows well, minimising brush marks. What this gives is minimal work before final coat and an almost (well closer anyway) identical colour to the top coat meaning you get good depth of colour. You may be able (after leaving it all a week to harden off) to put the transfers on and put the clear lacquer over the top of the lot. I don't know what medium your decals are, some are very thin vinyls, which will be better than thick ones!

oneten
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby oneten » 26 Oct 2016, 7:23pm

fastpedaller wrote:Oh and the clearcoat I can recommend is sold in 75ml container by Winsor & Newton from art shops. It is absolutely clear ie no amber tint, and again has a very long open-time so the brush marks disappear.


Hi again Fastpedaller. Is the clear varnish called Galeria by any chance? What has been your experience with durability and hardness? I'm also trying to
gauge how far 75 ml would go .as that's quite a small amount. Thanks again!

http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/shop/oil ... le-3022801

oneten
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby oneten » 26 Oct 2016, 7:42pm

fastpedaller wrote:Teckoloid is a nice polyurethane modified paint, but again I suspect the only available quantity is large eg 1lt. Another thing I didn't mention. Avoid thinning the final coat, as thinning takes away the gloss. Use the specified thinners if thinning the earlier coats (ie not white spirit) I'd suggest after the primer (and then rubbing down with very fine wet and dry, de-dusting and degreasing) unless the undercoat is very close to the final colour, it's a good (and often used method) to mix undercoat and topcoat 50/50 and thin a little so it flows well, minimising brush marks. What this gives is minimal work before final coat and an almost (well closer anyway) identical colour to the top coat meaning you get good depth of colour. You may be able (after leaving it all a week to harden off) to put the transfers on and put the clear lacquer over the top of the lot. I don't know what medium your decals are, some are very thin vinyls, which will be better than thick ones!


I've had a look at the link for the Teckoloid coach enamel and it looks promising, especially the colour referencing system. What kind of undercoat would you recommend? There's a combined primer/undercoat on the same site as included in your original post http://www.tools-paint.com/1l-tractol-8 ... 8654-p.asp Have you used this? I rather like the idea of a combined product to save on cost but if skimping results in an inferior finish then perhaps I need to buy them separately.

I think the decals might be the et transfer type but I couldn't swear to it, they could be vinyl. I've had a reasonably priced quote from H Lloyd's for the lot, including the Reynolds 531 sticker and fork crown shields. Just need to find out now about the thinners/brush cleaner for the paint, the product spec should give details.

fastpedaller
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Re: Brush-painting a frame?

Postby fastpedaller » 26 Oct 2016, 8:55pm

I haven't used the combined primer/undercoat. I always consider separate items give a better result than 'compromise' ones, but the techaloid products are very good, so this may be the exception. The varnish I used is
http://www.winsornewton.com/uk/shop/oil ... le-3021732

from my experience it gives a very durable, brush -mark free finish because it is very fluid ie almost like water! I should think 75ml would put one coat onto a frame, but you may want 2 coats so it could work out expensive. If my maths is correct. Assuming a 20 micron thickness that gives 375000mm square. for a 28mm diameter tube that gives us roughly 4261mm length of tube, with roughly 60cm main tubes, stays, forks etc, that should be enough for about 1.5 coats?
I suspect this product at 14.99 will be better value, and again they come with a good reputation
http://craftmaster.myshopify.com/produc ... ar-varnish
As it's an alkyd (oil based) varnish it should work on the techoloid with no issue.