Wheelbuilding woes: loosening spokes

[JamesE]

About four months ago I had my first crack at building a rear wheel from scratch. With the mantra “be methodical and stress-relieve thoroughly”, I thought it went pretty well… obviously I was wrong, though, because four months later I still have spokes coming completely loose now and again. Probably 10 or 12 have gone loose in total, in about 2,000 miles of riding. Often they go in pairs, on opposite sides of the wheel.

Obviously the lesson for next time is “it needs a lot more stress relief than you think it does”, but in the meantime: will things settle down if I keep tightening and truing, or should I take it apart and start again from scratch?

[531colin]

If the spokes are coming loose, its because there is insufficient friction at the nipple to stop them coming loose, and this is because the spokes aren't tight enough.
If driveside spokes are coming loose, the wheel isn't anything like tight enough.
No point taking it all to bits, just tighten it up (and stress-relieve at the new tension)
try to compare the tension with a "known good" wheel

[Brucey]

if you are strong, the rim is less than perfectly stiff, and your nipples are well-lubricated, then it is quite likely that the spokes will loosen in the rear wheel, especially if the tension isn't very high. Some rims have a maximum tension limit that means that the NDS spokes are never tight enough if the maximum tension limit is respected on the other side.

If you are getting loosening (in opposite pairs) on the rear wheel, this can indicate that a NDS spoke is loosening, then the opposite spoke is slacker than normal, then it too loosens. I agree with Colin that the DS spokes ought not to loosen by themselves, and if they do, they were likely way too slack to start with.

A suggestion; back off each NDS nipple in turn, add some threadlock, and retension the spoke before moving on to the next one; repeat until all the NDS spokes are so treated.

I had to do this for a chum of mine about two years ago; four years ago I'd built him a dished wheel with a very light rim and a low tension limit, and I'd warned him that the NDS nipples might come loose. They duly did; the wheel needed attention at about six month intervals over the first two years. I therefore added threadlock to the NDS nipples and restored the original tension in the wheel. Two years (and many thousands of miles) later, two spokes each needed 1/4 turn to bring the wheel back to 'perfect'.

BTW Roger Musson suggests building with linseed oil as a nipple lubricant; the idea is that it acts as a lubricant during assembly, before drying off and working as a kind of threadlock.

cheers

[JamesE]

Thanks both. Like an idiot I didn’t keep track of which spokes went loose but I think they’ve all been NDS. (To clarify: opposite pairs as in 12 and 6 o’clock, not NDS and DS). I built the wheel with oil on the DS nipples and dry on the NDS; will try just tightening everything up for starters and see how that goes. I was wary of overtightening because the last wheel died partly due to an eyelet pulling right out of the rim… but I now think that’s down to Ryde rims’ poor quality rather than my carelessness.

[Brucey]

... I was wary of overtightening because the last wheel died partly due to an eyelet pulling right out of the rim… but I now think that’s down to Ryde rims’ poor quality rather than my carelessness.

could be, but then again, maybe the spoke tension was too high, and/or maybe the rim was corroded. I see lots of rims that crack or have spokes that pull through and corrosion is rarely absent.

cheers

[JamesE]

could be, but then again, maybe the spoke tension was too high, and/or maybe the rim was corroded. I see lots of rims that crack or have spokes that pull through and corrosion is rarely absent.

Quite possibly. It was cracked as well … not much over a year old but had been ridden hard in all weathers. I’d have investigated more closely but this happened halfway through a tour so it ended up in the bin of the very excellent Belhaven Bikes in East Lothian.

I’m still not buying any more Ryde rims, though.

[Mick F]

I’m still not buying any more Ryde rims, though.

Utterly agree!!!!!!
Never ever again.
Long story, and I won't bore folk with it again.

Back to the original issue:
I too had a loosening of spokes, but I'd lubed the nipples with copper grease. With the previous rim I'd had, I tried to tweak one a year or two after building it, but found I was breaking the spokes as the nipples had seized. So I lubricated them on the next pair.

Because the spokes kept unscrewing, I pulled them all off individually and cleaned them off. That worked.
I don't believe it was anything to do with tension, just lubrication.

[531colin]

............. I built the wheel with oil on the DS nipples and dry on the NDS;..............

This is absolutely the right way to go, for an "average" sort of wheel.
If you are building wheels all day, the work of stress-relieving and tightening DS spokes can ruin your hands (don't ask me how i know), just put a drop of oil between the nipple and the eyelet. For hobbyists building the occasional wheel the oil left behind by manufacturing processes is enough.

If you are using 11 speed hubs (or campag compatible) and light rims, and you are strong or heavy, as Brucey says you can use some form of threadlock on the NDS nipples (Wheelsmith make a nipple prep. that goes off; sapim do nipples incorporating threadlock) so that you don't have to over-tighten the DS spokes.

[Suffolker]

In the past, I've used Loctite designed for installing hydraulic pipework in a seagoing environment; mainly because I had a lot of it, and it's expensive stuff.

One thing I have noticed with this, both in wheelbuilding and other work on cycle threads that need locking, is that its locking efficiency is reduced if previous oil or grease isn't thoroughly cleaned off.

On one wheelbuilding, I was a bit too generous with oil on the nipples. This ran down the spokes when nipples were uppermost, and when the wheel was used, somehow insinuated itself into the thread and nipple, presumably by centrifugal force. I could never get those spokes to stay tight enough, and in the end dismantled the wheel, cleaned it thoroughly and did it all over again, with minimal oil. That taught me to clean up properly, and also make sure oil hasn't run down spokes, by thorough wiping.

[Gattonero]

In the past, I've used Loctite designed for installing hydraulic pipework in a seagoing environment; mainly because I had a lot of it, and it's expensive stuff.

One thing I have noticed with this, both in wheelbuilding and other work on cycle threads that need locking, is that its locking efficiency is reduced if previous oil or grease isn't thoroughly cleaned off.

On one wheelbuilding, I was a bit too generous with oil on the nipples. This ran down the spokes when nipples were uppermost, and when the wheel was used, somehow insinuated itself into the thread and nipple, presumably by centrifugal force. I could never get those spokes to stay tight enough, and in the end dismantled the wheel, cleaned it thoroughly and did it all over again, with minimal oil. That taught me to clean up properly, and also make sure oil hasn't run down spokes, by thorough wiping.

God that is a lot of work on those spokes!
I can tell you that always use nipples that are soaked in oil in a small pot (like the cap of a GT85 can), and by using oil-tolerant threadlock like 223 grade, there isn't such problem.

Threadlock is useful, but is a "must" only in some circumstances. Millions of wheels in the world have been built without threadlock, and without problems. You get loose spokes for several factors, of which I'd say the major is inconsistency in the spoke tension all over the wheel.
It is normal to have a noticeable difference between the rear Lh and Rh side, this becomes a bigger issue when the Rh hub flange is closer to the center of the hub, like it happens with 11sp compatible hubs.
And disk-brake wheels do add some torsion and oddities to the wheel, too.
But you get inconsistent spoke tension all over the wheel by a pre-tension and complete build that are not done evenly. Mutiple do/undo of the nipples to correct the same area lead to uneven spoke tension.

My advice is to pre-tension the wheel by counting the nipple turns. Most often you have a good spoke length when you can pre-tension by having the thread of the spokes "just" disappearing in the nipple; from that point you add 1 or 2 turns and if you've worked well the wheel is already "straight" with <2mm of difference on all planes. Do the radial correction, do the lateral correction, add 2 (or more, as it needs) turns to the nipple until you get the highest spoke tension that the rim and the hub can get.

[pwa]

I'm reminded of a story someone told me in the early 1990s. He had a nice touring bike and had attempted to true one of the wheels. But he hadn't done it before and he hadn't been very methodical. So he kind of got lost and didn't know how to correct his mistakes. He ended up with a wheel with all the spokes highly tensioned and the thing out of true. Now lots of us know how to deal with that but he didn't. He panicked and decided he needed an expert. So, quite by accident, the first measure he took was a good one. He loosened off all the spokes to a point where none were tensioned at all. Then he took the wheel to a bike shop and to avoid looking like an idiot he told the person behind the counter that someone had vandalised his wheel by slackening all the spokes!

[Brucey]

.... I can tell you that always use nipples that are soaked in oil in a small pot (like the cap of a GT85 can), and by using oil-tolerant threadlock like 223 grade, there isn't such problem...

do you by any chance mean Loctite 243?

http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/Studio/ShowPDF/243%20NEW-EN?pid=243%20NEW&format=MTR&subformat=REAC&language=EN&plant=WERCS

it is described as 'oil tolerant' but in the small print it says 'tolerant to minor surface contamination'. It will result in questionable or reduced strength if the parts are saturated with oil.

My suggestion would be to build with the NDS nipples dry and to add threadlock later on if needs be. If you are buying threadlock for this job then I'd suggest Loctite 290 (or equivalent). This is a so-called 'wicking grade' so it can be applied at the thin end of the nipple and it will penetrate the threads effectively with no disassembly required.

If you don't have any of that but do have some standard grade threadlock, apply that in the same place and then spin the wheel as fast as possible; there is a small cavity there (the nipple has a taper internally at the thin end) and the threadlock will centrifuge into the threads well enough in most cases.

If the NDS threads are contaminated with lubricant, it is best to remove the nipples one at a time, clean and threadlock them. This way the wheel can stay true and keep the same tension, all with little effort.

cheers

[Gattonero]

A 243 is a medium grade, that should NEVER be used in wheelbuilding as you won't be able to move the nipples after a few minutes.

The 223 is a light grade that is oil-tolerant, of course the presence of oil would decrease its strength, but it also does slow its cure which makes possible to tension and true the wheel in a more realistic time (20 minutes).
If one is not fast enough, then the wicking threadlock is another option.
Another good product is the Loctite 572. It is some sort of pipe sealant, but works very well for wheelbuild too, doesn't drip so it's a good option if one likes to prep the spokes beforehand (just drizzle onto the thread of bunched spokes).

[Brucey]

is 223 still available? Henkel don't appear to have a data sheet on it....?

cheers

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

I have learnt the hard way with plain gauge spokes IIRC 13 swg.
They were thread locked from the factory, now I know why.
As Brucey has suggested in several of his previous posts when it comes up you need thread lock of some sort, at least on NDS on plain gauge spokes.

Did you ever build wheels with plain spokes 531colin