TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
Brucey
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby Brucey » 13 Dec 2016, 2:01pm

reohn2 wrote:...SinL's are the R model (drops,Shimano 9sp Tiagra STI's)


next time you are a fettlin' perhaps you could see whether they manifest a/b/c type behaviour?

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby reohn2 » 13 Dec 2016, 2:08pm

Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote:...SinL's are the R model (drops,Shimano 9sp Tiagra STI's)


next time you are a fettlin' perhaps you could see whether they manifest a/b/c type behaviour?

cheers


When I replaced the pads last week the pads were worn quite thin and I'd adjusted them up about a month ago with the cable adjuster without issue.
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Brucey
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby Brucey » 13 Dec 2016, 2:33pm

OK, but 'how much useful arm travel did you have left?' is the question....?

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bmblbzzz
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Dec 2016, 3:39pm

reohn2 wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Yes, it probably is largely down to poor adjustment or maintenance but TBH I think that is the result of bad design. The internet is full of people complaining about how hard it is to properly adjust their brakes. This applies to all sorts of brakes, not just disc brakes; anecdotally, cantis would seem to be the hardest. An awful lot of people find it difficult, fiddly, or non-obvious to adjust their brakes so that they work effectively, don't rub, wear evenly, etc. The only ones you don't hear any complaints about are drums and those Magura hydraulic rim brakes, which is probably because they're uncommon in Britain. Definitely something manufacturers should take on board.


I don't think for one minute it's bad design.
IMO a lot of people don't take the trouble to learn how to maintain things,brakes are just one.
It's never been easier for someone with even a modicum of mechanical application with the aid of Youtube to learn how to maintain a bicycle,

Yes, I agree. This is why I called it 'bad design'. Outside of specialist uses such as racing or audax (and often even within those, certainly audax), people are by and large not going to 'learn' how to maintain something. As you say, they "cover their eyes in fear or use it anyway until it breaks." This is why, particularly with something as critical as brakes, manufacturers should IMO make their mainstream products as easy to adjust and as maintenance-free as possible. Twisting the adjuster and replacing the pads (shoes, blocks) from time to time should be all that's really needed to keep it functioning, because that's certainly all it's going to get. With some components, this seems to have been addressed, such as the near universal use of cassette type bearings in bottom brackets.

but in a throw away society people seem to expect lifetime trouble free use,then buy a new one.If people were as addicted to maintenance as they are to shopping their bikes would be much better.
When I use to fit UPVC windows and doors I always made a point before leaving the job,of explaining that the locking systems(particularly the three hook bolt door locks),needed lubing from time to time even showing the customer where and how by demonstration.
If I got a call back it in the first two or three weeks it was always the hinges needing slight adjustment after settling in,which was my job.
If the call came after a few months or longer it was always a lack of lubrication which I always attended but explained they needed periodic lubrication easily done with WD40.
I'm convinced some people look at something mechanical and just cover their eyes in fear and call 'someone who knows what they're doing' or pretend it'll heal itself and use it anyway until it breaks.
My SinL's Marin,which is used to commute lmost daily in all weathers,and has low end Promax Render discs.
I service the bike when he thinks it's either not stopping as it should or it's 'making funny noises',the chain is always drier than a dry thing in the desert in summer,little or no maintenance is the norm with this bike.
But the brakes do stop it surprisingly well even when the levers(drops) are almost touching the 'bars and the pads almost down to the backing :? :shock: .
I've just serviced it and fitted new pads so he'll need telling about how good they'll be when rides it and there's little free play in the levers.

The 'disposable society' – I think 'replacement culture' might be a more accurate term – is a big topic and an interesting one. Well, it can be, anyway! Trying to stick more or less on topic, I don't think it's a direct explanation for lack of maintenance when it comes to things like brakes. At least, not in most cases; certainly there are people who will buy a new, better! shinier! set of brakes or derailleur or whatever rather than do some maintenance, but in most cases people aren't replacing, they're just not mending. I think the driver for a 'replacement culture' has always been there in people's desire for the better, the easier, the more advanced, but it's only in the last fifty years or so that we've become rich enough to really apply it in our daily lives. Arguably, what we think is better is often merely newer – again, trying to keep vaguely on topic, I'd nominate press fit bottom brackets as an example. Though I suppose even they have advantages in keeping manufacturing costs down.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby reohn2 » 13 Dec 2016, 4:53pm

Brucey wrote:OK, but 'how much useful arm travel did you have left?' is the question....?

cheers


Didn't check :?
There's always a next time :)
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I cycle therefore I am.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby reohn2 » 13 Dec 2016, 5:06pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:Yes, I agree. This is why I called it 'bad design'. Outside of specialist uses such as racing or audax (and often even within those, certainly audax), people are by and large not going to 'learn' how to maintain something. As you say, they "cover their eyes in fear or use it anyway until it breaks." This is why, particularly with something as critical as brakes, manufacturers should IMO make their mainstream products as easy to adjust and as maintenance-free as possible. Twisting the adjuster and replacing the pads (shoes, blocks) from time to time should be all that's really needed to keep it functioning, because that's certainly all it's going to get. With some components, this seems to have been addressed, such as the near universal use of cassette type bearings in bottom brackets.

But Avid BB7's couldn't be simpler once the short and not very steep learning curve has been climbed,they're a doddle to set up and maintain as are Spyre/Spykes FTM though as I posted up thread BB7's once set up don't need tools to adjust,or change pads FTM whilst by the road/trail side.


The 'disposable society' – I think 'replacement culture' might be a more accurate term – is a big topic and an interesting one. Well, it can be, anyway! Trying to stick more or less on topic, I don't think it's a direct explanation for lack of maintenance when it comes to things like brakes. At least, not in most cases; certainly there are people who will buy a new, better! shinier! set of brakes or derailleur or whatever rather than do some maintenance, but in most cases people aren't replacing, they're just not mending. I think the driver for a 'replacement culture' has always been there in people's desire for the better, the easier, the more advanced, but it's only in the last fifty years or so that we've become rich enough to really apply it in our daily lives. Arguably, what we think is better is often merely newer – again, trying to keep vaguely on topic, I'd nominate press fit bottom brackets as an example. Though I suppose even they have advantages in keeping manufacturing costs down.

Bikes are being made evermore complicated without need by cynical manufacturers,and bought by wide eyed wannabies who think anything that has more gears than spokes,or involving electronics simply must be better :? .
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Dec 2016, 5:34pm

I do know a bloke whose bike literally has more gears than spokes! He has a triple chainring, 9 or 10 speed, AND a hub gear! I think it's a Nexus 8-speed he has, so that's a total of up to 240 individual ratios! And yes, he uses them all: he rides a recumbent trike so is very fast downhill but has a spinal injury and is very slow uphill.

Bmblbzzz
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Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Dec 2016, 5:39pm

reohn2 wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Yes, I agree. This is why I called it 'bad design'. Outside of specialist uses such as racing or audax (and often even within those, certainly audax), people are by and large not going to 'learn' how to maintain something. As you say, they "cover their eyes in fear or use it anyway until it breaks." This is why, particularly with something as critical as brakes, manufacturers should IMO make their mainstream products as easy to adjust and as maintenance-free as possible. Twisting the adjuster and replacing the pads (shoes, blocks) from time to time should be all that's really needed to keep it functioning, because that's certainly all it's going to get. With some components, this seems to have been addressed, such as the near universal use of cassette type bearings in bottom brackets.

But Avid BB7's couldn't be simpler once the short and not very steep learning curve has been climbed,they're a doddle to set up and maintain as are Spyre/Spykes FTM though as I posted up thread BB7's once set up don't need tools to adjust,or change pads FTM whilst by the road/trail side.

So why do people not carry out that maintenance and adjustment? What are the reasons for it in your view?

Mr Evil
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby Mr Evil » 13 Dec 2016, 5:47pm

Brucey wrote:...Commuting bikes are used, abused, (not washed every ride!), parked carelessly, knocked about by other folk whilst parked... In these conditions disc brakes go wrong all the time. LBS scrap bins are (relative to the number in use) full of disc brake parts from bikes where the brakes stopped working properly for some stupid reason or other. By contrast drum brake failures are very rare.

cheers

I have Spyres on the bike I use to commute every day, including on wet, salty roads over the winter. In wetter times, the bike can go for weeks without managing to dry out completely. I wash it about every month or two. It gets chucked in the bike rack with a dozen other bikes.

In the two and a half years I have been riding it, I haven't had any brake failures, and the only maintenance I have had to do is adjust the pads as they wear, then replace them once worn out. Maybe that's more maintenance than drum brakes, but it's hardly onerous.

It's true that the discs are exposed to damage in a way that drum brakes aren't, but they are no worse than dérailleurs in that regard.

Stevek76
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby Stevek76 » 13 Dec 2016, 6:18pm

BB7s (of which the road variant exhibits a) behaviour although only just) could be better in terms of the rubbing in my opinion.

The spring design is weak and flawed and while it's possible get them set up with no rub they have considerably less tolerance than e.g. the shimano br-cx77s ( c) type behaviour) i have on another bike (of course they have their own issues, namely requiring both a 2.3mm and 3mm hex to adjust and the range of outboard adjustment is not sufficiently large).

It's a pity really as the BB7 is otherwise pretty solid, if a bit clunky (and for the weight weenies, heavy). Oh, and avids Alu backed organic pads are rubbish, avoid.

With the sudden running out of brakes issue i think that largely depends on cycling style as well as maintenance attention. If one employs a range of braking strengths (i.e. occasional strong braking even in non-emergency situations) the running out of brake problem will probably be noticed in time. The worst case is where someone generally only uses light braking and comes across an emergency stop situation and finds the brakes aren't there.

Can't say I've noticed crud being particularly bad for discs, they're obviously not as good as drums but they seem generally more tolerant to the various rim brakes to me, I'm not exactly the kindest to my town bike in terms of cleaning.

Brucey
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby Brucey » 13 Dec 2016, 6:47pm

FWIW I think that whilst MTB cable pull is well enough understood, with 'Road' calipers there are variations in performance because (in addition to different manufacturer's views on what constitutes the correct balance between brake MA and running clearance) there are unintended variations caused by the fact that there are two main road bike cable pull standards in force at this time.

One (SSLR) is more or less aligned with the DP calipers and STI units/brake levers launched between ~1993 and 2007, and the other one (NSSLR, which pulls more cable) applies to most new STI models launched 2008 and later. Older model STIs (with SSLR cable pull) were still being sold new, on bikes etc until very recently.

Annoyingly, Shimano don't even make a medium drop rim brake caliper that is properly NSSLR compatible, and other brake makers (eg tektro) only make the most vague allusion to 'new ratios' etc at best.... Mind you, rim brake MA varies with how much of the drop you use out of what you are given anyway.

However this does mean that many 'road disc calipers' are actually intended to be used with NSSLR brake levers, or at least work better with those than the other sort. If you use SSLR levers, the brakes might be nice and powerful, but the running clearance is liable to be adversely affected in many cases.

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby reohn2 » 13 Dec 2016, 11:53pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:So why do people not carry out that maintenance and adjustment? What are the reasons for it in your view?


It could be many reasons but predominantly it boils down to a couple,fear of getting it wrong due to not understanding mechanical thing in a hands on way,there seems to be less willingness to get their hands dirty fixing their own stuff.
The other is time,people will fiddle all day with smartphones on social media talking trivia or playing computer games before mending anything.
I'm generalising,but I was brought up in a world were you made your own fun and made your own stuff like pea shooter guns and bows and arrows or throwing arrows,once you got a bike you looked after it yourself with help from you parents but with aview from them of making you self sufficient.
Nowadays it's all logos,designer labels,hair gel and looking cool and that's quite young kids.
It's a different world where if something doesn't work you take it to the shop to have it repaired by a 'specialist tecnician' or buy a new one.
There are new MTB-alikes available for £70 which are run into the ground then another bought,no wonder cycling isn't as popular as it could be,riding about on one of those things is enough to put anyone off cycling for life :shock:
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yostumpy
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby yostumpy » 14 Dec 2016, 7:34am

I run spyres with TRP drilled levers. Only had 1 failure, when the pad and the backing plate parted company, leaving me without a front brake, coming up to a junction at the bottom of a hill. Not the original pads tho.

Brucey
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby Brucey » 14 Dec 2016, 8:02am

yostumpy wrote:I run spyres with TRP drilled levers. Only had 1 failure, when the pad and the backing plate parted company, leaving me without a front brake, coming up to a junction at the bottom of a hill. Not the original pads tho.


scary! What kind of pads were they?

cheers
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yostumpy
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Re: TRP Spyre/Spyre SLC

Postby yostumpy » 14 Dec 2016, 8:10am

Square Shimano Type, Can't remember the name, on special from CRC ( type place) they sent me out a replacement set. I bought 4 pairs at the time, , semi sintered, Clarks I think, so now ALWAYS use different make pads front and rear. :wink: