Better brake lever designs?

[Stevek76]

Hi,

I have a cheap road bike that I like (B'twin Triban 300), but there is one major flaw. The brake lever's are like this:

Consider changing a few of the angles a bit. Eg tilt the handlebars back a bit (they seem to be angled down currently) but move the brake levers round a bit further round so both the bars and the start of the hoods are flat. Helps the reach in both positions.

[Mick F]

Mick, IIRC a good part of the trouble you had was in fact because whoever had specified your bike parts originally had not used a recommended combination of parts, i.e. you had NSSLR brake levers with non NSSLR calipers. Whatever unfamiliarity etc you had with the lever shape wouldn't have been helped by the fact that you would have to pull a good deal harder on the brake levers anyway just to get the brakes to work.

You remember correctly, but although you are completely correct in the geometry department, and I agree with you .........................but my issue wasn't in the braking efficiency.

The brakes worked well, and now with Tecktro, they aren't much different TBH. Good braking.

Was the difference is, is in the hand-reach. The Tiagra STIs were terrible, plus they are spring-loaded, so you need to overcome the spring as well as the reach.
How people with small hands could even brake at all, I don't know. Mrs Mick F had a go at pulling on them, and her fingers wouldn't reach at all even from the drops ................ no matter if the efficiency was good bad or indifferent, unless you can operate them, they are useless.

She had a go at Mercian (and Ergos), and she could reach perfectly.
The levers are easy-reach, light action, and ergonomic ................ entirely the opposite of STIs.

[Samuel D]

After moving to downtube shifters and dedicated Shimano BL-R400 brake levers (which Sheldon Brown called the finest drop-bar brake levers ever made), I do think the ergonomics of STIs are poor. These BL-R400 levers are much better in every way except perhaps for hanging onto their hoods over cobbles – and why would you want to do that?

For that matter, why would you want to shift and brake at the same time?

Why would you position your bars so low that you seldom use the drops?

I don’t know the answers to these questions, but the trend has clearly been to put the bars very low and spend the whole time on the hoods by necessity, while using Shimano STI brake levers with awkwardly located pivots and curves in the wrong places. No wonder people want the power of hydraulic discs.

In truth, carefully chosen brake levers (to fit your hands and handlebar shape) work well even from the hoods. But expect to have to move to the drops for heavy braking.

If this sounds scary, it may be comforting to consider the example of the car. We don’t expect to be able to brake without moving our foot off the accelerator pedal (hoods) to the brake pedal (drops). Moving a limb to brake works okay for cars, and it works okay for properly set-up bicycles too.

[Tangled Metal]

I rarely ride on the hoods for some reason. Never have right back from the days of cheaper weinnman brakes and even top bar levers that l pushed the main levers down. I've not got big hands and broke one so lost a lot of grip there, but I've still have never experienced the issues described here.

Is it down to geometry or setup in some way? Whatever the reason is the OP should consider changes to make the levers work for him. You've got to be comfortable and confident in the setup of your bike to really enjoy it I think.

[Mick F]

You've got to be comfortable and confident in the setup of your bike to really enjoy it I think.

Spot on.

I had two options for my Moulton in that respect.
1. Fit Campag Ergos and some sort of conversion to make them work with the Shimano gearing.
2. Fit separate brake levers and separate gear levers.

I went for #2 and I'm MORE than happy now.

If I had my time again, I wouldn't have fitted Ergos to Mercian. Yes, I'd have gone to 10s triple, but I'd have stuck with the DT levers.
Now I've invested in Ergos, I'll keep with them as they are excellent ............... and even more so since trying the awful STIs.

[ChrisButch]

Mick, the composite photo you posted earlier (which I take it are your STIs rather than your Tektros?) perfectly illustrates the point I was making about the effect of hood bulk on hand position.
In order for your three remaining fingers to reach the lever, the crucial fulcrum joint between thumb and index finger has twisted round to the outer side of the hood, rather than sitting directly above it. This means that to activate the brake your thumb muscles have to work against your finger muscles in a grip, rather than the simple squeeze which is all that's required if the fulcrum is better aligned.
I can see this effect gradually appearing as I switch through successive generations of brake lever on different bikes. On my slim 1970s Mafac washing-line hoods, the fulcrum joint is directly above and aligned with the lever, and perpendicular to its pivot. This is the most physiologically efficient position. All the thumb has to do is act as a passive lock, and a light squeeze with the fingers is all that's needed.
On my 2000ish Shimano and Campag aero levers, already a bit bulkier, the joint has started to rotate to the outside of the hood and the thumb has more to do.
On my recent STIs, this has gone still further, the joint has gone so far round that it's almost in alignment with the lever pivot rather than perpendicular to it, it's no longer acting as a fulcrum, and a far more strenuous grab is required to work the brake.

[Bmblbzzz]

Regarding shape and bulk of Bagel* hoods, I've got one bike with the latest (not sure if it's technically 2017 or '16) Shimano Sora and another with Tiagra from 2012 (possibly 2011). Both 9-speed. Both have brake cables under the tape but the Tiagra has "washing line" gear cable. The hoods on the Tiagra are distinctly taller and slightly bulkier all round than the newer Sora. The lever shape is also slightly different. I do find the Sora levers easier to use, though there's not a huge amount in it. There are other differences in the levers but they only affect the gear shift.

Another factor to remember in actually reaching the levers is that bar shape plays a large part. Obviously it affects the gap between hand and lever when on the drops but it also affects the hoods position, as some bar shapes have a smoother transition than others.

*Brake And GEar Levers. Can't remember who invented this acronym, but thank goodness they did, as "brifter" is an ugly word.

[aljohn]

Oh dear! I wish I hadn't read these posts now. I've 2 bikes with campag ergo levers and have never had a problem (yet?) with braking from the hoods.
In fact, I prefer that to using the brakes from the drops, but that is 'cos I fitted the levers to use mainly from the hoods... With my new build the bike is almost complete but is waiting for Ebay to cough up some cheap Shimano 10 speed shifters. Now I read that the Campag levers are a better fit than Shimano... thanks guys for spoiling my dreams of a fantastic new (to me) bike with Shimano kit. I shall worry all over Christmas now, perhaps I can get finger extensions so I'll be able to brake OK?

[drossall]

I'm a bit baffled. Obviously some levers are better-designed than others, and indeed some people may find that their hands are better-suited to (Campagnolo) Ergos, or (Shimano) STIs, or some other brand. Also, some levers have, I believe, adjusters to change the distance that they sit from the bars, and, as someone said above, positioning is also important - too high and they'll stick out and not be reachable; too low (or too high) and they won't be comfortable to rest on as shown in some photos in this thread.

However, as a general principle, club riders have, for many decades, and long before integrated shifting, ridden most of the time resting on the hoods. I have bikes on which I almost never use the drops. Modern dropped-bar brake levers are, therefore, arguably designed to be used mostly from above.

This is helped by much better brakes; you don't normally need maximum power, and braking from the hoods gives you plenty. The main reason for braking from the drops is stability (getting your weight lower). Tour de France riders brake from the drops on descents because they are getting low for aerodynamic reasons, not because the braking is better.

[MikeF]

Hi,

I have a cheap road bike that I like (B'twin Triban 300), but there is one major flaw. The brake lever's are like this:

.

Those look as though they might be Shimano Sora with side lever for releasing the spring. I have those on one bike and I agree with what you say and not easy to brake effectively from the hoods. I have relatively short fingers and they don't fit my hands. I use the thickest spacer to move the levers nearer the bars. Also I don't find the left ie FD lever easy to operate. I have Tektro RL 341s on another bike which are comfortable and easy to brake effectively from the hoods, but these are used with bar end levers.

[foxyrider]

Of course much of the above conversation would be moot if the right shape bars were fitted!

I have smaller hands but I brake happily from the Ergo hoods almost 100% of the time. I do find that a slightly squarer bar design is better when on the drops - some supposedly ergo designs move the hand away from the brake lever so making matters worse.

Braking from the drops really should be last resort - the last thing you want to do when slowing is throw your weight forward and lower your eyeline! IME well set up Cross tops are very good and can certainly improve the performance when there are Shimano Claris/Sora/Tiagra Sti's in the mix - added to our Ergo's and the performance is amazing!

[Brucey]

re braking from the drops; there is no need for one's weight to be moved forwards when braking on the drops. If anything, it may end up further backwards, since most folk will instinctively straighten their arms in order to better resist the loads in them under heavy braking.

Note also that lowering the torso also lowers the CoG; in most cases this increases the maximum possible braking force before the rear wheel lifts, and on steep descents, I'd regard it as almost obligatory.

Whilst there are certainly separate considerations of eyeline etc in heavy traffic, if you need to brake hard on a bike with dropped bars, doing it from the drops is usually the best way.

cheers

[Mick F]

Mick, the composite photo you posted earlier (which I take it are your STIs rather than your Tektros?) perfectly illustrates the point I was making about the effect of hood bulk on hand position.

They were Tiagra STIs vs Campagnolo Chorus Ergos. The Tektro levers I fitted in place of the Tiagra STIs are exactly the same look and geometry of the Chorus Ergos. The hoods are identical too. However, the Tektro levers are alu and have a curious design of bend in the lever.

The issue with the STIs is the fact that the fulcrum is too far down. It's not that the levers are poor, more of where the leverage is. It's too far for me, and I have big hands! Coupled with the big chunky hoods, the situation is Very Bad Indeed.

[tykeboy2003]

"suicide levers"

I had them on my 2nd-hand 5-speed "racer" in 1978.

Ok for controlling/adjusting your speed, useless for emergency stops, caused me to bump the back of a car once, would have stopped easily on the "proper" levers.

[MikeDee]

I've got the Tektro RL520 V brake levers. The lever blades are too wide and don't fit the hands well when braking on the drops.