10 and 11 speed compatibility

[graymee]

Am I correct in saying that an 11 speed chain only differs from 10 speed in the external width and that the internal dimensions remain the same? Are 10 and 11 speed chainrings interchangeable?

[Brucey]

Am I correct in saying that an 11 speed chain only differs from 10 speed in the external width and that the internal dimensions remain the same? Are 10 and 11 speed chainrings interchangeable?

if you are talking shimano, the answer is 'yes' (pretty much) but if you are talking campag, it is a bit more complicated than that.

cheers

[graymee]

What about SRAM, FSA, etc?

[Gattonero]

Sram is prone to problems on the front shifting, I would refrain from using a different chain from the specific one, unless you want good chances of chain-skating, etc.

Given that cost is not much differnt from std. grade 10 or 11sp chains, I won't take the risk.
Chainrings are a doffernt story, and modern chainsets do required their specific chainrings anyway

[thelawnet]

Am I correct in saying that an 11 speed chain only differs from 10 speed in the external width and that the internal dimensions remain the same? Are 10 and 11 speed chainrings interchangeable?

if you are talking shimano, the answer is 'yes' (pretty much) but if you are talking campag, it is a bit more complicated than that.

cheers

Shimano say 'No'.

https://bikerumor.com/2020/05/22/aasq-7 ... questions/

The design of our non-shifting chainrings is the same for 10 and 11-speed systems. So in that case, yes. It works because the chain’s inner dimensions and the thickness of the gear are the same.

However, the outside dimension of the chain is different and this is a key specification for front shifting. The rings on a 10-speed crank would be too far apart, so using one with an 11-speed drivetrain would result in slow shifting and chain drop.

The tooth profiles are also different between 10 and 11-speed front chain rings. If you used the wrong crank, you could have unexpected chain drop when pedaling under power even if you aren’t in the process of shifting. This can be very dangerous and should absolutely be avoided.

So FC-M5100-1 is sold as 11/10 speed, because it's a single chainring so no issue with spacing.

FC-M5100-2 is then an 11 speed double, and FC-M4100-2 is the 10-speed double. There is no FC-M4100-1 because there doesn't need to be one, and it turns out that M5100 and M4100 are the same spec (both are called 'Deore', but in reality they would be 'Alivio' in terms of their specs), so:

Deore 12-speed M6100 is a 12-speed upgrade to Deore M6000 (which was 10-speed)
Deore 11-speed M5100 is an 11-speed version of Deore M6000, but with some lower specs
Deore 10-speed M4100 is just 10-speed Alivio
9-speed Alivio M4000 is phased out
Alivio 9-speed M3100 is re-branded 9-speed Acera M3000
Acera no longer exists
Altus M2000 is unchanged

Separately it's worth noting that, e.g., the GRX chainset range consists of:

RX810-2 '11-speed' 48-31t
RX810-1 '11-speed' 42t or 40t
RX600-11 '11-speed' 46-30t
RX600-10 '10-speed' 46-30t
RX600-1 '11-speed 40t

and that the RX600-11 and RX600-10 are completely identical except that there's a 46t-NF 11-speed chainring on the -11, and a 46t-NF 10-speed chainring on the -10.

So the RX600-1 and RX810-1 are both in fact 11/10 speed

Here we should note that Shimano make three GRX rds:

RX810 11-34t double '11 speed'
RX812 11-42t single '11 speed'
RX400 11-36t double '10-speed'

and that Shimano road 10 & 11-speed use the same pull ratio, since Tiagra 4700.

And also that Shimano introduced recently for MTB

CS-M7100 (12sp) 10-45t
CS-M7100/CS-M6100 (12sp) 10-51t
CS-M5100 (11sp) 11-42t or 11-51t
CS-M4100 (10sp) 11-42t or 11-46t

RD-M7120 ('12sp') '10-45t 2x12' (clutch type, 13t jockey wheels)
RD-M7100/RD-M6100 ('12sp') '10-51t 1x12' (clutch type, 13t jockey wheels)
RD-M5100 ('11sp') '11-51t 1x11' (clutch type, 13t jockey wheels)
RD-M5120 ('11/10sp') '11-46t 1x10' or '11-42t 2x10/2x11' (clutch type, 11t jockey wheels)
RD-M4120 ('11/10sp') '11-42t 2x10/2x11' (non-clutch type, 11t jockey wheels)

If we look at previous generation 11-speed, then RD-M7000 was '11 speed, 11-46 x 1, or 11-42 x 2' , clutch-type, 11t jockey wheels

So the RD-M5120 seems to be a repurposed RD-M7000-11 with slightly lower grade materials, and the RD-M4120 is the same thing with the clutch removed.

In fact, the RD-M6000-GS (as distinct from the M6000-SGS which is designed for a 11-36t triple) already appeared to be the same thing as RD-M7000 with again some materials differences.

https://si.shimano.com/api/publish/stor ... -4183B.pdf

The difference was that RD-M7000-11-GS was '11-speed', RD-M6000-GS was '10-speed', except, er it seems like this wasn't true. They were interchangeable.

In fact:

RD-M8000-GS
RD-M7000-11-GS
RD-M6000-GS
RD-M5120(-SGS)
RD-M4120(-SGS)

are all interchangeable and are good for either a 11-46 10- or 11-speed single setup, or a 11-42 double 10- or 11-speed double setup.

Those with rear derailleurs intended for 3x10 setups can use them with an 11 speed setup, but the real difference between 10 and 11-speed was that 10-speed tended to use modestly priced and sized cassettes and triples, whereas 11-speed used doubles or singles, with larger cassettes. However that distinction, which was in fact independent of the number of speeds, but more to do with marketing trends at launch, led to derailleurs to be marketed as '11-speed' because they matched with Shimano's 11-speed MTB cassette range.

As far as 12-speed goes:

* the chain, cassette and chainrings are HG+ rather than HG so are incompatible with 10 & 11-speed
* the RD appears to be the same, but a 51t cassette is so large that an RD-9100/8100/7100/6100-SGS, designed for 1x 10-51t, will shift very poorly with, say an earlier generation 11-46t 11-speed cassette. However, the RD-5100-SGS '11-speed 11-51t' seems to be just the same as the 12-speed 10-51t RD

So:

10, 11 & 12-speed MTB rear derailleurs are completely interchangeable within their parameters, i.e. if you have, say, a 10-speed shifter with a 11-36t cassette, and replaced the 11-36t with a 11-51t cassette, you'd need a new R/D designed for a 51t cassette, but it could be 10, 11 or 12-speed
11-speed road/gravel, 10-speed gravel, and Tiagra 4700 rear derailleurs are interchangeable
10-speed single cranksets are interchangeable with 11-speed single cranksets
10-speed double/triple cranksets are not interchangeable with 11-speed double/triple cranksets
12-speed cranksets won't work with 10/11 speed setups and vice versa

Shimano's MTB cage lengths are a bit confused now, because you have:

11t jockey rds:

RD-M9/8000-SGS which are 3x40, 2x42, 1x46

RD-M9/8/7/6000-GS which are 2x42, 1x46
RD-M5/4120-SGS is the same thing as those

RD-M6000-SGS, which is 3x36

13t:
RD-M9100-GS, which is 1x45 (special weight weenie edition saving 3g)
RD-M9/8/7/6/5100-SGS, which is 1x51
RD-M9/8/7120-SGS, which is 2x45

Anyway, the stupidly large cassette results in an r/d which likely won't work well with anything much outside its parameters.

[Brucey]

shimano may say 'no' but

a) that doesn't mean it isn't going to work reasonably well and
b) plenty of other manufacturers say 'yes' and use exactly the same chainsets and chainrings interchangeably between 10 and 11s.

Which is exactly what you would expect bearing in mind that when it is sat on the teeth, the 11s chain will stick out sideways about 0.13mm less than 10s chain. 0.13mm is about the same thickness as a single sheet of paper; it is also much less than the amount of side wear you would expect to tolerate between chainring teeth and chain.

So I'd have no qualms whatsoever about using 11s chain in an otherwise 10s setup; the shifting will probably still be better than with many other combinations.

cheers

[thelawnet]

shimano may say 'no' but

a) that doesn't mean it isn't going to work reasonably well and
b) plenty of other manufacturers say 'yes' and use exactly the same chainsets and chainrings interchangeably between 10 and 11s.

Which is exactly what you would expect bearing in mind that when it is sat on the teeth, the 11s chain will stick out sideways about 0.13mm less than 10s chain. 0.13mm is about the same thickness as a single sheet of paper; it is also much less than the amount of side wear you would expect to tolerate between chainring teeth and chain.

So I'd have no qualms whatsoever about using 11s chain in an otherwise 10s setup; the shifting will probably still be better than with many other combinations.

hrmm, not sure why you would use an 11s chain in an otherwise 10s setup, more likely seems:

10-speed cassette, 11s chainset, 10s chain

or

11-speed cassette, 10s chainset, 11s chain

At any rate the point seems to be that whereas single/inner chainrings are completely interchangeable, they do go to the trouble of making different outer chainrings, so it wouldn't seem particularly sensible having purchased, say, 11-speed GRX brifters & 11-speed cassette, to buy the 10-speed double chainset, in that the outer ring is different from the 11-speed one.

[Brucey]

interesting you should mention GRX; the 10s chainset is plenty cheaper than the 11s one and is virtually identical. IMHO if you use 11s chain with the 10s chainset, you are exceedingly unlikely to be any worse off than if you use a SRAM or FSA (or.....etc etc ) chainset since they are mostly 10-11s compatible rather than 10 or 11s specific.

Likewise if you change from 10s to 11s at the rear, and keep your 10s chainset; plenty of people have done exactly that.

In the event that you go completely mad and fit an 11s-only chainset into a 10s system then if the 10s chain niggled for some reason you could change it for an 11s chain or respace the chainrings by 0.13mm and either approach would fix it.

BTW there is an incentive to use 11s chain; if you like SRAM chains, PC1110 11s chain is fully commoditised (it is 'the sedisport of today') and is as cheap or cheaper than SRAM 10s chain is, I think.

cheers

[thelawnet]

interesting you should mention GRX; the 10s chainset is plenty cheaper than the 11s one and is virtually identical.

yes, identical apart from the outer chainring.

however the price is not so different.

There are two chainsets:

Rx600 is the basic version
RX810 has the hollow arms

then there are:
40t chainrings in RX600 or RX810 version, which appear to be subtly different, but the same price (38.31 €) and construction
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... ing-961599
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... ing-961615

A 42t chainring for RX810 only

A 30t inner chainring in RX600 version only, identical between 10-speed and 11-speed
A 46t outer chainring in RX600 version only, slightly different between 10 (€33.27) and 11-speed (€38.31)

A 31t chainring and 48t chainring (€63.52!) 11-speed for Rx810

Anyway, the '10 speed' is 46/30 with the €33.27 chainring, and the 11-speed is the same thing with the €38.31 chainring fitted instead.

There doesn't seem to be any reason why the 11-speed should cost more, but it's hardly much cheaper.

The pricing for the complete chainset is:

€90.75 for double or single '11-speed'
€80.66 for double '10-speed'

which does show mug pricing in that all three RX600 chainsets are identical apart from the chainrings, so it seems they should call cost the same or the 1x'11' should be slighly cheaper. But I wouldn't say €10 on a €80 product is exactly 'plenty'.


The RX810 is a ridiculous price of around €165-170, but that's not the '11-speed' version per se, it's the 'hollow arm version'. And it's a big rip-off, because they can't even argue they've had to make special lightweight chainrings - there are no plastic lightweight arms to lighten the chainrings as you'd find on outer road chainrings

The equivalent road parts are:

105 chainset - €130 (hollow crank arms, fibreglass chainring arms)
RS510 (11-speed) chainset €105 (solid crank arms, plastic chainring arms)
Tiagra chainset €90 (solid crank arms, fibreglass chainring arms)
RS400 (10-speed) €60 (solid crank arms, full alloy chainrings

Anyway, you pay a huge 'gravel tax' on the RX810 because Shimano want to make out it's 'Ultegra level', when it's not even '105' in fact.

At normal selling prices (rather than RRP) the RS510 and Tiagra chainsets seem to sell at about the same price, which seems fair enough really.