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Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 28 Dec 2016, 4:30pm
by pickerd
I thought I would try and sort my rear shifting problem over the Christmas break - but I have failed so far so I thought I might ask here.
The problem I have is that I can adjust for good down shifts at the expense of good up shifts and via versa. No amount of fiddling with the barrel adjusters gives good up and down shifting. Shifting works with two clicks down and one up etc. The cable pull seems weak compared to my other bikes?
The cable to my rear derailleur is internally routed from a 105 shifter to a 105 rear derailleur.
THINGS I HAVE TRIED ...
I have tried a new rear derailleur.
An alternative shifter and cable inner and outer.
I have checked the derailleur hanger alignment and it is good.
The chain is pretty new.
All 10 speed shimano components that have worked on another bike.
I wondered if the internal routing was causing extra friction?
Is it possible to convert to external routing?
The bike originally had SRAM - does that have a stronger pull?
Any ideas?

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 28 Dec 2016, 5:04pm
by pickerd
Could I have twisted the front and rear derailleur cables inside the down tube? The cable would not be in tension then.

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Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 28 Dec 2016, 5:18pm
by Valbrona
There aren't many frames out there where you route a bare inner wire through. They pretty much all use a plastic sheath that you fit over the inner wire, or else as the wire moves it easily snags.

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 28 Dec 2016, 5:33pm
by pickerd
The cable I took out was a bare inner. I will try adding a Ptfe tube though. Foolishly I pulled the old cable out without thinking about routing a new one - school boy error!

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my D5803 using Tapatalk

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 28 Dec 2016, 7:55pm
by Brucey
SRAM gearing uses a different actuation ratio that is more tolerant of cable/frame issues. Shimano 10s (4700 asides) is the least tolerant system going.

With some internally routed frames, the best results are obtained only by using the exact right ferrules and a liner in places you wouldn't normally expect. You just can't skimp on cable quality, or the prep quality, either.

cheers

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 28 Dec 2016, 9:22pm
by pickerd
Mmm. I took the SRAM off the bike and put it on another! I might have to swap back.

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my D5803 using Tapatalk

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 28 Dec 2016, 9:23pm
by pickerd
Is it possible to convert internal to external routing?

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my D5803 using Tapatalk

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 29 Dec 2016, 8:40am
by Brucey
pickerd wrote:Is it possible to convert internal to external routing?


probably, but it is quite likely to look (and work) like a lash-up, on a lot of modern frames.

BTW there may be specific issues with the cable routing on your frame; can you post pictures?

cheers

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 29 Dec 2016, 9:41am
by pickerd
This morning I have loosened the front mech cable and adjusted the rear mech again - shifting is better and bt adding some inner cable sleeving I think it will he ok.
Before my hands got too cold I pulled the loose front mech cable - I think I could feel the rear mech cable moving. Not conclusive proof that the cables were twisted but it's a possibility!

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my D5803 using Tapatalk

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 29 Dec 2016, 10:19am
by pickerd
Strike my last comment - I have put the 105 shifter back on - rubbish again. I'll have to go back to SRAM! Might but some photos on here later.

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my D5803 using Tapatalk

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 29 Dec 2016, 10:53am
by Brucey
apologies if this is b-obvious, but if the shifting is different with different shimano 10s shifters, then it is quite possible that something is wrong with one of them.

cheers

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 29 Dec 2016, 12:44pm
by pickerd
I originally suspected that the problem was the shifter as the action was weak / not positive, compared to my other set-ups. However, a Tiagra 10 speed shifter showed similar symptoms, but was a little better. I thought this may be down to cable routing which is not under the bar tape on the Tiagra.
I do think the 105 shifter is on the way out.
The internal routing is only in the down tube but the entry is probably a kink point and the cable touches the tube on exit.
Taking everything into account, and as the bike came off the shelf with 11 speed SRAM Rival, I think I am going to spend a little money to go back to the SRAM Rival. Added bonus = 11 speed?

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 29 Dec 2016, 1:21pm
by roger72
Hi, On page 7 of technical bits you will see I had same prop on a Planet X frame .The straws cross over each other when put in at factory, I had to pull out front changer cable. (where it goes into frame I could undo a small screw and lift off the plastic cap and could see inside tube) attach another inner cable minus nipple with tape pull it out and then put through again ,best of luck. Roger72

Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 29 Dec 2016, 2:45pm
by pickerd
Very interesting. Mine is a Tomac montezuma from planet X!

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Re: Internal Cable Routing - Shifting Problems

Posted: 31 Dec 2016, 9:41am
by Gattonero
I would get a sufficient length of gear outer and a new wire, and run them completely away from the bars and the frame.
That's right, from the shifter to the RD without touching the bike.
Do that, it will tell you if the Shifter, or the RD, or anything else that is not cable-related has something wrong.

Once you got that nailed, and it will take only minutes!, you can start working on the cable routing. Most of the times, is a matter or entry and exit of the cables in the frame.