Yet another saddle shape post

[531colin]

This was all beginning to feel like familiar territory .....page 2 of this thread....

......... i recognise that the riding position for a world class athlete to ride an event lasting an hour or two is different to the riding position for an "average Joe" to do a touring holiday...........

[Samuel D]

That’s the nub of the matter. A professional cyclist sustains literally twice the power (350 W versus 175 W) of an avocational rider who rides twice a week if they’re lucky. Since they both use roughly the same cadence, that means the pro must be pushing the pedals – or the forward pedal, to be more accurate – twice as hard. That must make a big difference to weight balance.

Then add in the lightweight upper bodies of typical pros, which don’t need much counterweight.

This problem is made worse by fitters who fit sub-200-watt cyclists as if they were fitting pros. We’re shielded from most of that on this forum, but in other places on the web people chat as if it’s normal about paying $200+ (they’re often Californians) for a ‘fitter’ (i.e. a staff member in a posh bike shop) to seat them too high and forward.

[MikeF]

Pages 6 and 8 of Rivendell Reader #43 (100+ MB PDF file) talk about steep seat tubes on small frames. Grant Petersen seems to share 531colin’s view that steep angles on small frames are unjustified and a design error. He gives two possible reasons for this error on the two pages.

A very interesting read and not just about seat tube angles. Many similar comments to Colin's.

Also on this Rivendell page "A Good Position For Many Riders
When you're in your riding position with your hands on the hoods, you should be able to put your hands behind your back without your torso plopping down onto the stem. For most riders, that means a back angle of 50-to-65 degrees."

His point about having knees ahead of the pedal spindle was that the rider then tends to push backwards with the legs and as a result pushes the body forwards, which is not desirable. I think for relaxed position I also have knees slightly behind the pedal spindle. This person also finds the same. (at 5'30").

Rivendell bikes certainly buck the current trends - many have 71.5 STA although the smallest bikes have 559 wheels, and the slightly larger bikes 584 wheels. Geometry here. A pity they're not available here just so the frames could be tried.

However if you're a triathlon rider it seems a steep STA is better.

On a road bike according to this chap you need to tilt the saddle up to stop you moving forwards and lower the handlebars - apparently. Does look comfortable to me - but then I'm not young.

[Samuel D]

Did you mean “Doesn’t” in that last sentence, MikeF?

There’s a fun BikeRadar piece here on Greg Van Avermaet’s bicycle.

Van Avermaet is the reigning Olympic road-race champion and one of today’s top classics specialists, but he apparently finds the seat tube angle of his 54 cm BMC Team Machine SLR01 a bit too ‘pro’ at 73.5 degrees.

BikeRadar says the seatpost setback is 15 mm, but the pictures show his mechanic has swapped out the default seatpost for BMC’s model with 30 mm of setback. And he still has the saddle all the way back. I don’t think a Brooks would work for him at all on that frame.

I’ve noticed a lot of the guys who’re good on mixed terrain and cobbles have a tendency to sit well back.

[531colin]

In the interests of experiment I've switched saddles tonight. Put on a Charge Scoop the rails of which are a little shy of 90mm compared to the Pro at 60 mm. More importantly the distance from sit bone dimples to front of rail is 15 mm longer with the Scoop.
It's enabled me to get that 15mm back Colin suggests might give me the feel of pulling up on the bars. If it's dry in the morning I'll give it a try. I haven't a 10 mm shorter stem kicking about so I hope that doesn't alter the feel?

Anything to report?
Just something like.....did it feel different?.......if different, was it good or bad different?

[Paulatic]

In the interests of experiment I've switched saddles tonight. Put on a Charge Scoop the rails of which are a little shy of 90mm compared to the Pro at 60 mm. More importantly the distance from sit bone dimples to front of rail is 15 mm longer with the Scoop.
It's enabled me to get that 15mm back Colin suggests might give me the feel of pulling up on the bars. If it's dry in the morning I'll give it a try. I haven't a 10 mm shorter stem kicking about so I hope that doesn't alter the feel?

Anything to report?
Just something like.....did it feel different?.......if different, was it good or bad different?

Ah yes I have Colin, a timely reminder thank you.
Changing my saddle from the Brooks I set the saddle about 13 mm back from my norm and dropped the seat post about 6-7 mm.
First ride- after 5 mls my thighs were aching, and I wasn't feeling happy. Stopped and raised my saddleback to where it was. Finished a 30 ml ride in that position, can't say I felt the pull on the bars and my hands felt as if I'd been putting more weight on them.
Second ride- 15ml in and I wasn't feeling happy. Stopped and put saddle forward around 6 mm which now leaves it approx 7 mm further back than originally. Completed that ride of around 20 mls
Third ride- left everything the same 35 mls completed feeling ok but still not getting that pull up feeling
Fourth ride of Wednesday this week- 40 ml club ride position feeling really good and also experiencing a wee pull on the bars at times which I take to be the same as you refer to.
So all in all I've not changed a long time position by much but I do think I've changed it for the better.

[Grarea]

I was wondering how you were getting on myself today.
We must ride different.

I definitely gain a lot of strength by pulling on the bars when pushing hard on a gear.

[531colin]

.........
So all in all I've not changed a long time position by much but I do think I've changed it for the better.

.....and you can't say fairer than that!

[Grarea]

.........
So all in all I've not changed a long time position by much but I do think I've changed it for the better.

.....and you can't say fairer than that!

Absolutely.

Could I please get some more help?
Moving the feet forward really helped.
It took me from real pain in less than two miles so off I went.

I then discovered that it was all relative and that although it was better I still was desperate to get off after two miles.
If i just put up with the discomfort I could get 10 miles but boy oh boy it isn't pleasant.
It doesn't really get any worse. When I say discomfort it is pretty bad.

I have been playing with so many scenarios and adjustments, many of them making little or no difference.
But on occasion I come across something that instantly makes things a little better.

I realised that the main part of the two miles is that is when I start going uphill.
Uphill is absolutely definitely something that makes the discomfort worse.

I have two issues:
1) The saddle digging into the backs of the legs.
2) Sit bone discomfort. This also gets substantially worse when I go uphill I found.

I put an old more padded saddle on which I would say is uncomfortable in a 'normal' sense but it reduced the discomfort to a level that meant I could think about it more and do ten miles pondering it.

The pressure in the backs of the legs is eased by tilting the saddle down and also (surprisingly) moving the saddle forward.
The sit bone pressure seems to be eased the more I lean forward. Well, the further I put the bars forward.
I think that maybe I was 'scrunching'. So the pelvis was more upright than it should be.

[Grarea]

So, that is the background, but here are the first questions really.

1) I should expect to be comfortable (well, at least not be keen to get off) in the first couple of miles shouldn't i? Or am i expecting too much?
I am pretty sure it is position because sometimes I accidentally find something that isn't uncomfortable on the flat.
But as soon as I start uphill, it gets quite unhappy quite quick.
2) I have realised that as I lean more forward the pressure is reduced on the sit bones.
What I have also noticed is that as my rotation comes over the top of the pedal stroke, it gets much more 'boney' (my sit bones)
I am pretty sure that my cranks are too long, but I was going to do that at a later date. I am wondering if they might be a contributing factor to my discomfort.
Or does everyone get this?

[531colin]

Going back to your old photos......



Feet sorted out after this....tick......but if you are still in anything like this position, i think you need a monster long handlebar stem, set level.
Compared to me (again)



I like to sit pretty far back behind the pedals, my backside is about as far back as the rear axle, but my pelvis is tilted forwards, compared to yours hardly tilted at all (as you said) and you are sitting more or less bolt upright.
If I don't have a long enough reach on a bike, i find myself sitting on the back of the saddle (which is what you are doing?).
I need a decent reach to brace my lower back/pelvis to give a firm base for the muscular work of pedalling, and to distribute my weight between pedals, saddle, and bars.

Post some new pictures so we can get a look at where you are at the moment.

[Grarea]

Thanks so much for this.
I shall do some more pictures.
I need to set everything up and move furniture.
Although my position is all a bit confused.
I have been trying to relieve the discomfort.

I can't believe I am struggling so much.

I have also been thinking about your observation on knee height.
I think that is something else that prevented me leaning forward.
Now, I know that I am not the slimmest guy in the world, but my legs interfere with my stomach when leaning forward.
(When going uphill for sure, can't remember on the flat) Is that normal?
Also, as I said, as my knee is in the top, say, quarter of the stroke, my sit bones become much more prominent.
They feel more boney. Don't know how relevant it is.
I know the cranks are too long, but hadn't thought they might be relevant to sit bone discomfort.

Anyway, I shall take the pictures and we can go from there.

[Grarea]

OK, here are the pictures.

IMGP9014 by chuffedas, on Flickr
IMGP9013 by chuffedas, on Flickr

IMGP9012 by chuffedas, on Flickr
IMGP9011 by chuffedas, on Flickr

A couple of things though. I have some limiting factors.
This is as a result of me trying to reduce some of the pain.
I don't have a 'position'. I keep trying things.


I have realised that one of the pains (back of legs pressing on saddle) is eased by moving the saddle forward.
This moves the saddle further forward than is right for the balance thing. This might be a limiting factor. (Unless something else reduces the back of the leg pressure). I also wonder if it makes me sit on the wrong bit of the saddle.

Also that when I want to cycle a little further, i put the more padded saddle on.
But when you look at the shape of it, it tips me forward.

So, although that is how I think I am, I am more like this half the time, just wedging myself in, what with the saddle position and the saddle shape:
IMGP9017 by chuffedas, on Flickr

I have realised that I have my hands in whatever position holds me back best.
I haven't been setting the bars for position, more for that reason.

Here are the bars I have:

IMGP8996 by chuffedas, on Flickr
So I can adjust however.
What position shall I hold them to test for consistency?

Here are the saddles I have to play with:
IMGP8994 by chuffedas, on Flickr

I think the concor is too narrow. (I don't really know how you tell to be honest.)
The brooks is old and feels like concrete but might try it again now I have changed my position more. I think it might be too narrow.
Also, I think that there isn't enough of a sweet spot for me to find.
SG This is a welcome release as it has some padding. It helped me work out the other issues.But it is definitely wrong. It is a funny shape, feels uncomfortable and makes my leg numb. oh, and it tips me forward. (But it is a nice break)
Ergon. This felt like concrete on the sit bones but is less so now I am leaning further forward. I think I will work with this one as it is nice and flat.
Bontranger - this I have't tried recently, but I suspect that the slope at the back might tip me forward and confuse the issue.

Another thing.
I have just realised that I think my seatpost might be slipping confusing the issue yet again.
I shall replace the QR (which is as tight as I can get it (I am struggling to undo it)) with a bolt.

It is a supposedly suspension seatpost. But it is quite jerky.
I need to change that for a non set back non suspension post.
I left it in because it came with the frame and I thought it might help a little with the pain.
Also, it doesn't quite allow me enough forward tilt on the ergon to remove the back of legs problem.
I would have swapped it out but I don't have one the right size.
I shall get another post for consistency as the suspension will change my position and it seems millimetres count.


Right, so, what shall we go with first?
Overall body position?
I would have thought saddle setback first but realised that the back of leg pain is easier from moving it forward.

Thanks again for this.
I know it is a long post, but I now see how much everything affects everything else so am trying to give all of the information that I can think of.

[Grarea]

I like to sit pretty far back behind the pedals, my backside is about as far back as the rear axle, but my pelvis is tilted forwards, compared to yours hardly tilted at all (as you said) and you are sitting more or less bolt upright.
If I don't have a long enough reach on a bike, i find myself sitting on the back of the saddle (which is what you are doing?).
I need a decent reach to brace my lower back/pelvis to give a firm base for the muscular work of pedalling, and to distribute my weight between pedals, saddle, and bars.

Post some new pictures so we can get a look at where you are at the moment.

It is quite funny how different I feel to how the pictures look.
Such a good thing to do.

I see your point about the pelvis.
Everything that bends forwards on me is shoulders.

I nipped out for a couple of miles to see.
When I lean forward, my pelvis stays in the same place.
No wonder all my changes made very little difference.
I have to lower my head to about six inches over the head nut (?) that then forces my pelvis to move.
Otherwise, if I (what feels like) really arch my back (but is probably straightening it) it again forces my pelvis to rotate forward.

Both times I think it reduces the 'boniness' in the sit bone/ saddle interface.
It feels like if I could push the saddle back slightly, it would help, but that presses on the backs of my legs.
I am sure I have read somewhere how to position to rotate the pelvis.

This is me do you reckon?
http://www.massagetoday.com/common/view ... p?id=28950

[531colin]

You have got some narrow saddles there.
I'm guessing the Brooks is a B17 Narrow? Somebody has laced it, which makes them firmer, make sure the laces are loose enough that you can flex the saddle leather with the heel of your hand (but not with one finger) .
Surely the Bontrager is a boy's saddle, and the San Marco a racing saddle?
Your bum bones are shaped like the rockers of a rocking chair, this has the side effect that you can sit comfortably leaning back or forward. However, your bum bones are closer together at the front than at the back; in other words, if you want to use a narrow saddle you need to tilt your pelvis forward, and sit on the bit where the bum bones are close together. This may put your thighs on a collision course with your belly, but you know what to do about that.
The Specialised saddle has reasonably big "targets" for your bum bones, and it looks about the widest of a lot of rather narrow saddles. It might also tilt your pelvis forward. I don't need or like padded saddles at all, and I can get numb legs if my bum bones sink into "luxurious" padding....i think when your bum bones sink in too far, it puts the weight somewhere other than your bum bones.
In your third picture down, I can see the back of your saddle, and it looks like you are sitting about where i would expect on the saddle. Your hands are quite a lot higher than your saddle, it could be worth trying the bars lower, maybe so your hands are just a bit higher than the saddle?

In that picture, you talk about "pushing yourself back"....is that back on the saddle or as in holding your torso up? You have quite a long reach there.
I'm reasonably certain that the skeleton is photoshopped onto the bike; one foot the heel is on the pedal, the other foot the ball, and the bum bones (ischial tuberosity, if you like) are impossibly far forward on the saddle.