Yet another saddle shape post

[Grarea]

Interesting, without seeing the video I would agree with Colin.
I was out today and started wondering about Grarea's "pressure at back of the legs". I stopped and raised my saddle and lo and behold I think I got what he meant.

I have nothing to say really, I just wanted to join in.



I shall be interested in trying other saddles as well now.
I shall just leave it well alone for a bit though.
(Well, I will probably fiddle with the bars, see if i can reduce the back ache and see what limits me next)

It really was just the back of the saddle pushing into the meat of my legs.
If you really want to try it out, I found that going uphill was the worst.
Also that tipping the nose down a bit helped, so tip the saddle up perhaps.
But each time my leg came round it pressed hard on the saddle. Like, my leg had to go round and the saddle wouldn't go away, so the leg got bruised.
It was a bit like someone pressing the non pointy end of a pencil into your leg I guess?
I am completely amazed how 10mm made so much difference.

In hindsight, I have been thinking about it.
In the past I have had more trouble on the road than off road.
I assumed it was because I was out of the saddle more perhaps.
I realised that I always set the saddle lower off road for obvious reasons.

Oh, and

[Grarea]

Goodness, life keeps getting in the way of cycling.
Boy, I can't believe I can't get my position right on my own.
I am committing to cycling every (or every other) day now to sort my position.
Just a short ride. Say 6 miles, I can tell pretty quickly.

Short version:
Is there anything else I can do to counteract wanting to shift my saddle back?


Long version
Dropping the saddle relieved that pressure at the back of the legs nicely. Thank you.
As did the flexible skirts on the brooks saddle methinks.

So, I went with that for a while.
I moved over to my MTB to get that sorted.
I put the ergon on it and dropped the saddle to reduce the pressure on the back of the legs.
I could do 16 miles. almost all of it off road and most of it uphill

I realise I was avoiding the road bike.
So, the pressure on the back of the legs was settled, now it is position.

Everything I do involves me wanting to put my saddle further back.
But it seems against everything I read. It also feels wrong in a different way.
Like it feels SO right for my leg strength and my balance, but it feels like I am completely folded up.

My shoulders were aching.
I was holding myself back with my arms locked.
I keep shifting myself back off the back of the saddle.
When I took the pressure off the bars, it pulls me forward on the saddle.
I can't hold my position without toppling forward.

Also, the sit bone discomfort was distracting on the brooks.

I could do more miles on the ergon so I put that on.
Mainly because it can be set further back than the brooks.
I instantly have more leg strength on the hills and speed on the flat (ish).
I am bouncing less with a higher cadence.
I can relax my arms.
My balance is much better on the bike.
I can lift my hands off the bars and hold my position.

It was digging into back of my legs a bit (the ergon does this more than the brooks but I can't get the brooks as far back)
so I dropped the saddle a bit more (5mm) and just that amount brought my balance just slightly forward again.
But it is as far back as it can go.

So, it all seems to make sense right?

But here is the thing.

My STA is 67 degrees (maybe a bit less due to the bend at the bottom).
I have a 10-15mm bit of wood pushing my toe clips forward.
My Brooks rails were too short, the Ergon is back further than it should be.
I have a setback seatpost.

I am only 5' 8".
Am I missing something?
My knees are WAY behind the pedal axle.

I do feel pretty folded over,but I guess that can be fixed a bit with bar position.
Is there something else I could do instead of putting the saddle back?

[Vorpal]

Post more pictures?

You knee shouldn't be way behind the pedal spindle, but it could happen if you have especially large feet or something.
You can think of the right saddle position as going in a radius around the bottom bracket, so if you need to put the saddle forward a bit, you also need to put it up a bit again.

If your lower body is comfortable, you might be able to put your upper body in the right place with a stem change? It might be easiest to fit an adjustable stem (this sort of thing, sized for your bike)

Even if you don't like it, you can use it to find your best position, then flog it on here.

p.s. it doesn't look WAY behind on your photos in previous posts?

[Grarea]

Yes, I might do that.
Cheers.
It kind of feels right, but running by everything I read, it doesn't make any sense.

I don't mind that, I just wondered if I had missed something that I could do instead of pushing myself so far back.
I kind of feel like i wouldn't mind going a smidge further, but my saddle is past its limit, the sta is pretty far back etc etc

And no, not big feet.
I think I have longer femur for my height and longer torso maybe, not sure.

And thanks about the bars, but I have some adjustable ones already, thanks.
They have been incredibly useful.
IMGP8996 by chuffedas, on Flickr

[Vorpal]

Well, it seems like you are doing the right things. I'd say keep up with the trial and error. It can take a long time to sort out, and it can be hard to tell, when you aren't used to it, which aspects are more influenced by fitness and which by position. If you find something that seems ok, or works, donæt stop trying alternatives, but mark it, so that you can go back

[Grarea]

Yes, cheers.
It is odd not knowing what 'normal' should feel like.

I wouldn't mind the saddle being within its limits though.
But that feels too far forward.

[Paulatic]

''This is a pic of Grarea's position I Cut it just at the spindle of the pedal which shows the knee well back.

[531colin]

Saddle position backward and forward is about balance on the bike, its not about pedalling efficiency.
KOPS is a convenient "rule of thumb" which happens to work for many people, its a mistake to elevate KOPS to some sort of condition which you must fulfil if you are to be a "proper cyclist".
Read Steve Hogg here on saddle setback.....https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/
He does it simply by the "falling forward test".....and if its good enough for him, believe me its good enough for the rest of us.
So, do your saddle setback so that you have very little weight on your hands.
If you then have your belly getting in the way of your thighs, its the belly thats wrong. Losing the belly will take a bit of weight off the front of your torso, and then you can start moving the saddle forward without pitching forward onto the bars.

[Grarea]

If you then have your belly getting in the way of your thighs, its the belly thats wrong. Losing the belly will take a bit of weight off the front of your torso, and then you can start moving the saddle forward without pitching forward onto the bars.

Ah, now that sounds like it makes sense.
I was thinking the 'feeling folded up' thing might be a belly thing.

But primarily I was trying to sort the saddle fore and aft and pondering it long term.
I hadn't thought that this might differ in the future when I lose more weight.
That really does make sense. Being then able to move it forward at a later date works for me.

I WAS wondering if I had a heavy head or something.
I guess the weight is predominantly above the waist. So that all makes sense.

Thanks again.

[oomilegs]

Not sure if this is of any relevance but I have trimmed the sides of my B17 to allow it to "give" a wee bit more.
The saddle has done 500 miles, the tension bolt is loosened to its thread ends, and the leather has had 3 applications of proofide.

Cheers,
Paul G

[Vorpal]

If you then have your belly getting in the way of your thighs, its the belly thats wrong. Losing the belly will take a bit of weight off the front of your torso, and then you can start moving the saddle forward without pitching forward onto the bars.

Ah, now that sounds like it makes sense.
I was thinking the 'feeling folded up' thing might be a belly thing.

But primarily I was trying to sort the saddle fore and aft and pondering it long term.
I hadn't thought that this might differ in the future when I lose more weight.
That really does make sense. Being then able to move it forward at a later date works for me.

I WAS wondering if I had a heavy head or something.
I guess the weight is predominantly above the waist. So that all makes sense.

Thanks again.

I agree with Colin, but thinking on it, you might find it more comfortable, at least for the time being, to ride in a somewhat more upright position. If that's not feasible (or comfortable?) with your current bike, maybe you could hire a city bike or borrow a town bike, or something to try it out?

Or you may just have to find the best compromise between weight on your backside and feeling folded up. You may also be able to get used to it (even if that isn't your preferred option), but chances are that as you can increase your capability to cycle longer distances, you will lose weight (just don't reward yourself with cake too often!)

[Grarea]

I agree with Colin, but thinking on it, you might find it more comfortable, at least for the time being, to ride in a somewhat more upright position. If that's not feasible (or comfortable?) with your current bike, maybe you could hire a city bike or borrow a town bike, or something to try it out?

Or you may just have to find the best compromise between weight on your backside and feeling folded up. You may also be able to get used to it (even if that isn't your preferred option), but chances are that as you can increase your capability to cycle longer distances, you will lose weight (just don't reward yourself with cake too often!)

Cheers for that.
Yes, I was just thinking the same actually.

I hadn't thought about that aspect at all before.

I shall twiddle with stuff knowing that it will change.
KNowing that I will be moving the saddle forward in the future helps a lot.
what bits to keep etc etc.

Shame about the sitting up, as, with the Brooks, I had less sit bone discomfort if my nose was 6 inches up from the top cap.
(I clearly couldn't ride like that, I was experimenting) It seemed to spread the load a bit off the bones.
Anyway, off for a little cycle and a fiddle.

[Grarea]

Saddle height has really solved the back of the leg pressure.

Well, still going round in circles a bit.
Saddle shape really does make quite a difference doesn't it?
I am trying with the bars raised again. Although this puts more weight on the sit bones.
I can't believe how complicated I am finding this.


But also REALLY interesting. (if I ignore the incredibly frustrated feeling I get that I can still only do a few miles before I want to get off when I have so many more in my legs)

Saddle:
My sit bones were the most comfortable on the Brooks.
Trouble is, I have so much weight on the front of the bike. The rails, as we all know, are quite short.
I knew my position was wrong. It is a real shame as bone wise it seemed pretty good.
Pretty quickly getting sore hands, aching shoulders, also pushing myself back on the saddle, couldn't hold myself hands free, lower back ache.
All in less than five miles. Ah well, maybe for in the future when I can move my saddle more forward.

So, I tried the SG saddle again as it has a bit of padding and longer rails.
It just feels so weird. Very hard to explain. Almost like it is upside down. Goes up where it should go down.
I tried it in various positions but no go.

Now I am going with the Ergon again.
I can't believe how much freedom this saddle gives my legs.
I don't really know how to explain it.
I don't notice any restriction on any other saddle.
But EVERY time I put this one back on, I really notice it.
It is really interesting.

I had been playing with the SG and got it about as good as it could be.
Went a short loop including a hill i use.
Swapped the saddle and did another loop on the ergon.
It is worth 1-2 gears on the same hill. I get more strength, more pedal speed, more freedom, all sorts.
Even though I hadn't really put the Ergon in the right position.

It is a shame that it feels like I am sitting on a piece of wood with someone else sitting on my shoulders.
I also have it back past the max stop on the rails.

But shape wise. I can't argue with it.
Well, I say that, I have to lower it more than the Brooks for example as it needs to be lower to prevent the pressure on the back of the legs due to its firm 'shoulder' .... 'corner' ....... (Not sure what the word is.)
But definitely along the right lines.

[Vorpal]

Different Brooks saddles are designed for different positions, from aggressive racing type position to upright town bike position. If you like your Brooks, you might just need a different Brooks.

It's not a cheap experiment, but I would expect the company to be very helpful in selecting the correct saddle.

A Spa leather saddle might be another alternative.

[Grarea]

Another interesting thing that I have found.
(I am still only doing short rides as I get so fed up with the discomfort)

The difference in sit bone pains.

Now the back of the leg pressure is gone, I can focus on this.

With the Ergon, it is a simple discomfort.
It is like balancing on your sit bones on bits of wood and having someone sit on your shoulders.
Pretty uncomfortable, but you know where you are with it.
Worse than other saddles on the flat but not any different really on the hill.

With the SG for example, (but also with all the other saddles) the discomfort gets so much worse on hills.
It is very difficult to explain.
But it is a different discomfort.
It is worse on hills.
It is the most worst on medium hills.
So, 6-7% for example is worse than the flat, but more like 2-3% makes it WAY worse. and you have to get off the saddle.
I have worked out that it is a different sort of discomfort but can't explain it. It is still sit bones.
It is sort of like it is a position based discomfort whereas the Ergon discomfort is just a pressure based thing.
As I say, pretty interesting stuff.

(Can't remember how it was with the Brooks)

Anyway, short version: getting there slowly.