Campag Ergo Wear

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Mick F
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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Mick F » 11 Aug 2017, 6:06am

Brucey wrote:Mind you everything (and everyone....) is, in the fullness of time, scrap, isn't it...?
Very true.

Recently bought a Veloce 10sp chain, and I've been buying Campag 10sp chains for years. This new one is different.

Firstly, Campag chains come (came?) with a thin clear grease on them - almost like clear oil - and this new one last week had brown grease on it.
Secondly, the chain is "stiff" sideways. It changes sweetly enough at the rear, but the front triple is becoming annoying. Despite the front mech being adjusted perfectly, the chain going up from inner to middle sometimes de-rails onto the BB. Sometimes, the chain de-rails right off the chainset when going from middle to outer. Annoying in the extreme.
Never ever ever had this problem before.

However, the chain changes sweetly from outer to middle, and middle to inner, and even outer to inner. It does this perfectly.

I wonder if Campag are running out of 10sp chains and the writing is on the wall for their demise.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby gfk_velo » 12 Aug 2017, 8:00pm

There has been no mechanical change to 10s chains, Mick - the only thing that has been altered is the lubricant used, a different system was used for a short time but it's now been revised back to the original system - some issues were seen with over-lubrication of both the 10 and 11s chain production.

You may have bought a chain from that production.

There's no question of "running out" of chains - they are made to satisfy specific wholesaler orders as are most parts - the factory retains very little stock, like most component makers these days, Campagnolo run a "lean manufacturing system" - in other words, it's ordered, it's made and just a small over-production takes care of warranty and spare parts requirements.

I know you are a very long-term Campag user & very experienced - however, I'd give your FD set-up a check ... If you have shift issues that were not there before, it may be that the FD was correctly adjusted for a worn chain and now needs a gentle tweak to correct for a new chain, the combination of new chain / part-worn rings is problematic, or there is some damage to the bumper plate on the inside-front of the FD (that is the usual reason for persistent over shift from small to big / middle to big ring in 10s (and 11s) systems. Admittedly that last doesn't account for over-shifting middle to small dropping the chain onto the BB shell.

If you are using square taper, I'd hesitate to teach my elders and betters to suck eggs, but it's always worth, if the chainset has been off and back on (even onto the same BB axle / unit) that the FD setting is still good - square tapers can and do migrate different distances up the BB axle with re-fitting, from their original position. It doesn't take a huge difference to produce front shift issues, especially in tandem with other changes.

You might care to try completely de-greasing the new chain and re-lubricating with something like ProGold ProLink or some other high quality, low viscosity synthetic ... if the lateral stiffness seems high, it may in part be stiction caused by the over-heavy lube on the chain that appears to have been applied in this case, to your chain.

HTH
Head Technician and Director, Velotech Cycling Ltd,
Nationwide modular mechanic's training in all bicycle types
Campagnolo's main factory-appointed UK Technical and Service Centre

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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby gfk_velo » 12 Aug 2017, 8:24pm

Some other collected observations on comments from higher up the thread.

EC-RE209, 210. 111 and 112 are all still in production - those are, respectively, G-springs L & R and the corresponding mounting rings.
We also keep stocks of these and routinely replace them for final customers and for retailers. We advise replacing both at the same time as sure as eggs is eggs, you'll strip replace on or other and rebuild a lever and a week later, the other will fail.

The 10s ratchets are no longer available as loose spares, although the bodies complete (EC-RE200 & 201) are. We do still buy bodies and frag them so that we have a full range of small spares (for the cases where the part is no longer in production) but we are doing that less now as 9 & 10s second-version ErgoPower levers are starting to disappear.

PowerShift - the biggest problems here are that users don't necessarily realise that they should not be mated to RDs that they are not designed to be mated with ... older RDs that were not designed for Escape or PowerShift had return springs in them which were some 25% stronger than those designed for use with these levers - medium to long term, rates of wear and tear to he mechanism, being considerably higher as a result of this, cause failure.

A common problem with Escape and PowerShift is also spraying them full of lube. Don't do it, they don't need it and if the lube is mineral oil based, there is a fair chance that the oil will impregnate the plastics and resins used and lead to premature failure. Materials were changed in PowerShift in Feb 2013 to fix this issue and we've not seen a significant number of failures in warranty period (3 yr) as a result of this, since.

UltraShift levers can't always be used successfully with all 10s RDs ... those designed for use with Escape and PowerShift have, as noted above, weaker return springing than those designed for use with "full ErgoPower" or UltraShift. The same is true apropos Athena post 2011 11s RDs and the current Potenza RD.

If cable runs are simple, external and well maintained, in most cases the gear system when set up, will work fine but set-up is definitely a bit "pickier" and needs to be done more accurately. With wear and tear and dirt, the setting drifts faster and becomes harder to dial back in. Eventually the user will find that the system will index well up the cassette, or vice versa, but not both. The symptom is like (because it is, in effect) too much friction in the cable system. The reason - UltraShift levers use part of the return spring tension in the RD to pull the shifter mechanism "backwards" from a position of slight overshift on downshifting. If the spring tension is partly soaked up in a worn or dirty cable system, it can't do this and so the shift settings drift. Basically, in a new, fully compatible system, there is a "perfect sweet spot" for cable tension adjustment and about 1/2 a turn of the adjuster barrel in either direction of "slop" which still produces an acceptable shift. If the RD is one with an Escape or PowerShift compatible spring, that tolerance falls to about a 1/4 turn in each direction. So it'll still work when new, as noted above - but there are limitations.
Head Technician and Director, Velotech Cycling Ltd,
Nationwide modular mechanic's training in all bicycle types
Campagnolo's main factory-appointed UK Technical and Service Centre

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Mick F
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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Mick F » 12 Aug 2017, 8:50pm

Excellent reply. :D
Thank you very much.

I used to buy Chorus 10sp chains, but they only do Record and Veloce now.
Veloce is fine TBH.

The difference between the chains is small.
The Record has hollow pins, the Chorus has/had the same side plates as Record but has/had solid pins The has Veloce solid pins and flat plates the same as Record 9sp but with C10 on them of course. Chorus 10sp has/had CC on them. Record has CR on them. Campag 9sp Record has C9 on the plates.

The Veloce 10sp chain I'm using and commenting on is on my Moulton. Shimano Tiagra triiple. The bike came with a Wiperman Connex chain and i didn't like it but used it for 1,800miles before swapping to a Veloce chain. The Campag chains come with 113 links. The connecting link, I discard.

With Mercian, I remove a short length of chain and use a KMC link, but with Moulton I need the full 113 links and add three spare links plus two KMC links to make it up to 118 links. I have two Campag Veloce chains I use for Moulton, and the first one worked perfectly. It has done 500miles and I've set it on one side and used a new one as I like to swap chains every now and again. I'll swap back when this new one has done a while of service.

The Connex chain and the first Veloce chain worked perfectly from Day1.
The new Veloce chain worked badly from Day1.
It changes fine on the rear, and fine on the front but only outwards to inwards. Inwards to outwards is awful.
The Wiperman and the first Veloce chain worked perfectly.

I expect the the new Veloce chain will run in and be ok eventually ............... but it is a very very different chain to all the Campag 10sp chains I've used before. It feels different, and it's operating differently.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Gattonero » 13 Aug 2017, 8:10am

gfk_velo wrote:...

A common problem with Escape and PowerShift is also spraying them full of lube. Don't do it, they don't need it and if the lube is mineral oil based, there is a fair chance that the oil will impregnate the plastics and resins used and lead to premature failure. Materials were changed in PowerShift in Feb 2013 to fix this issue and we've not seen a significant number of failures in warranty period (3 yr) as a result of this, since.
....

Teflon grease of suitable thin grade seems to do a good job, not weakening the materials, indeed reducing the wear caused by the rubbing of the tooth over the ratchet ring


gfk_velo wrote:There has been no mechanical change to 10s chains, Mick - the only thing that has been altered is the lubricant used, a different system was used for a short time but it's now been revised back to the original system - some issues were seen with over-lubrication of both the 10 and 11s chain production.
...

some of the Potenza chains seems to fall in this description? they had lots of thicker grease in between the inner link plates. A nightmare to remove all that stuff :?
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Brucey » 13 Aug 2017, 10:01am

Gattonero wrote: Teflon grease of suitable thin grade seems to do a good job, not weakening the materials, indeed reducing the wear caused by the rubbing of the tooth over the ratchet ring


it'll most likely still have an oil base to it; a 'Teflon grease' for bicycle use isn't usually made without it. Its pot luck whether it softens the plastic or not; 'very likely' if it is mineral oil based, less likely if it synthetic oil based.

There are a few lubes that are made in a different way (i.e. they do not comprise an oil and a thickener). An easy test to do is to smear a little lube onto a paper towel. If, after a day or so, the oil part hasn't obviously started to soak into the paper towel, then maybe you don't have a conventional grease with an oil base.

FWIW these shifters wear out too quickly even if they are not lubed with the wrong lube, or attached to the wrong mechs. Arguably Campag must have worked that out too else they wouldn't have changed the materials; the new materials will probably last the warranty period but customers will expect more than that. [BTW I would imagine these shifters were originally tested on a rig that always briskly pushed the upshift button all the way down, something real riders cannot be relied upon to do...]

There is a need to differentiate product lines for sure, (e.g. by varying the contact point materials and finish, by making them technically limited or weigh more etc) but IMHO making unreliable base level groupsets is probably commercial suicide; especially if it would cost pennies to sort out properly. Why would customers want to buy more Campag stuff if their first experience of it is that (in an expensive, annoying fashion) it just breaks...?

--some of the Potenza chains seems to fall in this description? they had lots of thicker grease in between the inner link plates. A nightmare to remove all that stuff :?


IIRC factory chain grease usually melts easily; if you want shot of the worst of it before fitting, just gently heat the new chain (eg using a hot air gun) whilst it is sat on something absorbent.

cheers
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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Gattonero » 13 Aug 2017, 10:27am

My experience with fitting them goes on a 4 digits number, I can tell for sure that the Finish Line white grease, whether does include some mineral oil or not, it does not foul the internals of Campag ergopowers.

Even tho, I'm still for those parts not been done with the correct material.
The use of resin may give benefits as far as manufacturing, and ease of use for the cyclist as they provide a nice light action. But at least the tooth and ratchet ring should be made out of metal, their "escape" mechanism may not even require the metals to be fully hardened.
Or at least, make them replaceable; though it is true that unless the replacement parts are dead cheap, when including parts and labour for the repair, you can't have the cost coming up to 40% the price of a new shifter.

As far as the chains, this is not acceptable especially is it's OEM parts. They have to be ready out of the box.
On the bright side, the Potenza chains have a very good Q/P
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Brucey » 13 Aug 2017, 10:42am

Gattonero wrote:My experience with fitting them goes on a 4 digits number, I can tell for sure that the Finish Line white grease, whether does include some mineral oil or not, it does not foul the internals of Campag ergopowers.


I agree, that has been my experience too with that particular grease, which I attribute to it being a fully synthetic oil base stock, as described in the literature supplied by the manufacturer.

As far as the chains, this is not acceptable especially is it's OEM parts. They have to be ready out of the box.
On the bright side, the Potenza chains have a very good Q/P


they've changed the lube now anyway, but if you are fussy about the lube on a chain, a new chain is never 'ready out of the box'; they have to put something on it, else it will rust or could be used lube-free (not recommended... :wink: )

It takes about a minute to heat a chain as described; not the end of the world unless you are fitting them all day every day, in which case (if you are that fussed about it) you can heat them en masse in a low oven instead.

cheers
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Mick F
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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Mick F » 17 Sep 2017, 9:57am

Going back to my original problem, in that the ratchets are worn in my Chorus 2006 RH 10sp Ergo. New G springs have helped, and no doubt I have a few years left in it yet.
I could buy a whole new body of course.

As it happens, I run a Miche rear hub now with a Campag body. I also have a spare Miche rear hub but with a Shimano body.
I could swap the bodies over, fit a wider variety of cassette than Mr Camp produces, and fit either my trusty Campag Victory DT friction shifters or fit Shimano DA indexed DT shifters like I use on Moulton - plus fit a pair of Tektro brake levers.

No doubt, my Ergos could be sold as someone would want to buy them even though the RH one needs £100 spending on it.

That way, I can kiss goodbye to Campag - am I sad?
Dunno really.

Any road up, this in the future.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby deliquium » 17 Sep 2017, 10:16am

You could keep the Chorus levers and use Shimano 8 speed cassettes :D

But that's standing still and going backwards? :roll:

ps I've got a pair of 10 speed Shimano bar end shifters for sale :wink:
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Mick F
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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Mick F » 17 Sep 2017, 11:26am

deliquium wrote:You could keep the Chorus levers and use Shimano 8 speed cassettes :D
But that's standing still and going backwards? :roll:
ps I've got a pair of 10 speed Shimano bar end shifters for sale :wink:

Not keen on 'bar end shifters.
Using a friction LH on the Moulton for the 3sp SA. It works well, but it makes me wobble when I flick it. :oops:
Much prefer DT shifters.

30odd miles on Mercian on Friday and the Ergos worked fine. The RH one isn't a positive as it used to be, but it works fine enough so I'll keep with them for a few years yet.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby fausto99 » 17 Sep 2017, 2:08pm

Brucey wrote:MoS2 bearing greases vary quite a lot; some have <1% in and others have up to 50% in, with a price to match. You want the latter sort for this job. I'm not familiar with the Farnell product.cheers


The data sheet on the Farnell site doesn't say the %, but at ~£3 a tube in can't have much compared to the 30-50% content of this http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/lubricants/0691274/ BUT at £44 per tube :shock: !

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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Gattonero » 24 Sep 2017, 10:24am

Don't even bother wasting time searching in that silly expensive stuff, use some decent Teflon grease from the LBS (or wherever you can find it) and especially make sure your cable runs are done properly.
People does not realize how much stress and incorrect gear cable run does put on the shifter, in terms of extra-friction that can foul with the pull ratio too
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Graham » 20 Apr 2020, 9:41pm

Just for the record : I've just changed the G-springs on my Right-hand side Ergopower lever. [ Chorus 2000-v2 - started as 9-sp : converted to 10-sp ]

I used this YouTube tutorial :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OocYpHXJ3Y

PS. It was a nightmare of fiddle-buttocking around with the curly springs . . . . which would NOT NOT NOT stay in place without constant constraint.

Stock Levels now : 2* pairs of RHS G-springs : 1* pair of LHS G-springs

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Re: Campag Ergo Wear

Postby Brucey » 20 Apr 2020, 10:01pm

of current readily available products I think 'Liqui-Moly LM48' is suitable for G springs. A small tube is about eight or nine quid, but in terms of ergo rebuilds, is probably a lifetime supply.

cheers
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